fake news?
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
The question was, how do I spend it?
I vote for fishing.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
Could you be right? Sure. Are you likely right? I doubt it. As you pointed out, there are two sides to every story (at a minimum!) So Amazon's side of the story is probably something along these lines: People (generally) don't know how to think critically anymore. A person can still be smart, but people (especially those in Amazon's first and presumably still primary market, the US,) are a rather ignorant and easily cowed lot anymore. If we (Amazon) offer to sell books that hold an unpopular opinion, we (Amazon) will most likely be seen to support that point of view. This will lead to loss of customer base, and lost revenue, which is obviously a bad thing. Any special interest group can go to Amazon and ask them to stop selling X or Y product for A or B reason. But being a business, they aren't going to do anything that negatively affects profits. Could they be bribed enough money to more than compensate for lost sales? Maybe. But could you imagine the even bigger hit to sales if that bribery ever came to light? I doubt there's enough money available in circulation to compensate for the precipitous fall Amazon could be subjected to for a misstep. Now, as to the Holocaust issue (I promise to keep this lounge worthy,) I am not a Holocaust denier. I'm only 31, so obviously I have no first hand proof one way or the other. I've also never met a survivor to hear their story, so no second hand knowledge either. However, it seems silly to deny that the Holocaust ever happened, given that it would require millions of people to have lied about what happened during that period (which borders on conspiracy levels of paranoia to think that everyone would cover it up...) I also believe that the motivations leading to the atrocities of the Holocaust are many and varied. I won't go as far as to say they were justified (because seriously, any grown person should understand that what happened was objectively wrong,) but sometimes situations get so far out of hand that it is beyond one person to correct. I'm glad that someone took the time to explore the issue from both sides and get it published. At the very least, understanding the reasons and motivations of the Nazi party will help prevent something similar from ever happening again.
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
Hey, you're not even the real Ian Bell, so who are you to talk? But history, as always, is written by the victors.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Hey, you're not even the real Ian Bell, so who are you to talk? But history, as always, is written by the victors.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
That's certainly true, most westerners today don't have a clue why the Ukranians hate the Russians so much. Just an example, I realise were treading on soapbox material now
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
The Zyklon gas chambers did exist, but were used for delousing and sanitary purposes.
Rewriting history there. Denying the holocaust is illegal here. You'd be saying that all the scientists, witnesses and archives were fake.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
If you are tempted to believe such BS, do yourself a favor and watch the video the Allies put together about the state of the concentration camps as they found them: [Nazi Concentration Camps : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/nazi\_concentration\_camps). Viewing it is NOT for the faint of heart! There may be others, like [Concentration Camp Nazi Atrocities Holocaust Documentary 77504 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/77504CampsOfTheDead), if you do more searching.
Sudden Sun Death Syndrome (SSDS) is a very real concern which we should be raising awareness of. 156 billion suns die every year before they're just 1 billion years old. While the military are doing their part, it simply isn't enough to make the amount of nukes needed to save those poor stars. - TWI2T3D (Reddit)
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Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed?
No, but it could be coming. It's a dangerous line we are on right now (well many lines as we are approaching the singularity of humanity and its definition but that is a different topic). On one hand we have a flood of disinformation intended to confuse and distort actual truth. In the middle we have bias true information that is riddled with opinion to lead the readers perception in one direction. On the other extreme we have white papers that have no opinion are fact based but criticized by the earlier (disinformation flood) for not promoting their political or religious agenda. Science is under attack and so is truth. If we come out of this mess with an overseer allowing one to bubble up over the other we as a society will be OK, but only for now. The fact is society changes. Only a few generations back we have to go to find slavery (actually it still is in effect around the world, but society shuns it) as excepted by society. This means even if we created the ultimate AI or watch dog agency that could with 100% provide truth vs. fallacy we would have set ourselves up for failure. Why? Back to the middle. Those media pieces that use fact to state their opinion are a sign of society. In general, they come about because society is lashing back against something (be it state, corporation, a person, any entity really) about following a path that the writer, the writers sponsors, and often the readers want changed. If something contains this they how do we as a society improve or evolve? My thoughts on this are we need society itself to wise up. Most people on this forum (yes most, not all) are quite smart and can read between the lines of bias articles and still take out the content. Most people on this forum can see a BS article for what it is, and most can read through a white paper without falling asleep. This is simply NOT true for "Most" people in general though. Take the 2004 election for example. In that election you had a guy that could barely form a complete and accurate sentence against a guy that would ramble on about facts and data and can come off as condescending when not easily understood by the listener. Well in case you are not sure the guy that could not manage putting sentences together won. Someone once pointed out to me that no
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The Zyklon gas chambers did exist, but were used for delousing and sanitary purposes.
Rewriting history there. Denying the holocaust is illegal here. You'd be saying that all the scientists, witnesses and archives were fake.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Chuckle, let me take a quick crack at this. You are from the country where the current administration denies human contribution is a major factor in global warming. You are also from the country which is inundated in an avalanche of fake news each and every day. Your country fomented conflict and strife in Ukraine and then claimed the Russians were the aggressors, your country imposes regime change on sovereign countries under patently false pretenses and historically falsifies information in its' support of dictators, theocracies and governments that impose harsh and oppressive measures on it's own people plus oppression and suffering to hundreds of millions of people. Your civil rights and privacy are being whittled away on an ongoing basis, your government's surveillance policy largely targets it's citizens .... and then you have the audacity to tell me what is fake and what is not fake? Surely even you can see the raw irony in your response. I've never had any interest in the topic until now so I'll read the book and see what the fuss is all about. If what you say is true that your country has passed legislation to ban discussion of an idea then that is truly a very sad reflection on the one country that proclaims itself to be the beacon of democracy and free thought.
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If you are tempted to believe such BS, do yourself a favor and watch the video the Allies put together about the state of the concentration camps as they found them: [Nazi Concentration Camps : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/nazi\_concentration\_camps). Viewing it is NOT for the faint of heart! There may be others, like [Concentration Camp Nazi Atrocities Holocaust Documentary 77504 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/77504CampsOfTheDead), if you do more searching.
Sudden Sun Death Syndrome (SSDS) is a very real concern which we should be raising awareness of. 156 billion suns die every year before they're just 1 billion years old. While the military are doing their part, it simply isn't enough to make the amount of nukes needed to save those poor stars. - TWI2T3D (Reddit)
I've been banging on the keyboard, night and day, for the past three weeks and really need an interesting diversion. I think I've found one. As for this particular topic, I've never paid it any real attention until I read that Amazon banned these books. So I picked one that had previously been given high ratings on Amazon and decided the only way to come to an informed opinion was to check it out for myself. Cheers, Ian P.S. The first chapter addresses introduces the very points you raise. This is going to be an interesting read.
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
You need to ask yourself why the Holocaust lobby exists, why it can not support literature that casts doubt on the Holocaust. At the same time ask yourself why the wiki article on the Holocaust ignores completely the 5 million Slavs who were also killed, or the gypsies, spaniards mentally handicapped gays etc to etc.
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There are hardly any left anymore. But I have met two men that were in concentration camps. I don't have any reason to doubt what they were telling me. The only myth I know about is that they were closed in 1945. I recommend a visit. I've been to Buchenwald and I will bring my kids there when they are old enough.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
I think the question was about amazon removing books rather than the Holocaust. Regarding the Holocaust itself, why are the 5 million dead Slavs never mentioned?
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I think the question was about amazon removing books rather than the Holocaust. Regarding the Holocaust itself, why are the 5 million dead Slavs never mentioned?
Now, really, was it? As for your other question, because noone's pushing it. How many people knows about Holodomor? There's a really big difference betweeen ignorance and outright denial.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Chuckle, let me take a quick crack at this. You are from the country where the current administration denies human contribution is a major factor in global warming. You are also from the country which is inundated in an avalanche of fake news each and every day. Your country fomented conflict and strife in Ukraine and then claimed the Russians were the aggressors, your country imposes regime change on sovereign countries under patently false pretenses and historically falsifies information in its' support of dictators, theocracies and governments that impose harsh and oppressive measures on it's own people plus oppression and suffering to hundreds of millions of people. Your civil rights and privacy are being whittled away on an ongoing basis, your government's surveillance policy largely targets it's citizens .... and then you have the audacity to tell me what is fake and what is not fake? Surely even you can see the raw irony in your response. I've never had any interest in the topic until now so I'll read the book and see what the fuss is all about. If what you say is true that your country has passed legislation to ban discussion of an idea then that is truly a very sad reflection on the one country that proclaims itself to be the beacon of democracy and free thought.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
You are from the country where the current administration denies human contribution is a major factor in global warming.
We currently don't have an administration, and the previous didn't.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
your government's surveillance policy largely targets it's citizens
That's not our police, can't be - they're not good with computers. You must be confused with one of our friendly nations who does that work on our behalf.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
and then you have the audacity to tell me what is fake and what is not fake?
Yes. The things that discredit my country or government do not discredit me. You are discrediting yourself by doubting the holocaust.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
If what you say is true that your country has passed legislation to ban discussion of an idea then that is truly a very sad reflection on the one country that proclaims itself to be the beacon of democracy and free thought.
Freedom does not mean that you can do what you want - that is anarchy, and rather deadly. And yes, you have the right to say what you want here - but as in all societies, there are rules. Even here on the forum. Break the rules, face the consequence (or don't visit the forum). --edit; I've marked the thread as abusive.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
Holocaust denial is illogical. If it did not happen, then where did all the victims go? Yes, Jews, Slavs and everyone else.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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Holocaust denial is illogical. If it did not happen, then where did all the victims go? Yes, Jews, Slavs and everyone else.
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
Relax and take a deep breath. This is my first book on the topic and no one - not even the book - denies the atrocities of the war. It is pretty clear some of you guys really don't know what you are talking about other than preconceived notions of what you think the other side is saying. I won't know until I've read the book but I will say the first chapter contains interesting information and points.
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You need to ask yourself why the Holocaust lobby exists, why it can not support literature that casts doubt on the Holocaust. At the same time ask yourself why the wiki article on the Holocaust ignores completely the 5 million Slavs who were also killed, or the gypsies, spaniards mentally handicapped gays etc to etc.
These are some of the points raised in the first chapter and why I believe this book will make for an interesting read. But, as I have repeatedly indicated, I will reserve judgement until I've read the entire book. thanks for the input. Cheers,
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Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
You are from the country where the current administration denies human contribution is a major factor in global warming.
We currently don't have an administration, and the previous didn't.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
your government's surveillance policy largely targets it's citizens
That's not our police, can't be - they're not good with computers. You must be confused with one of our friendly nations who does that work on our behalf.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
and then you have the audacity to tell me what is fake and what is not fake?
Yes. The things that discredit my country or government do not discredit me. You are discrediting yourself by doubting the holocaust.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
If what you say is true that your country has passed legislation to ban discussion of an idea then that is truly a very sad reflection on the one country that proclaims itself to be the beacon of democracy and free thought.
Freedom does not mean that you can do what you want - that is anarchy, and rather deadly. And yes, you have the right to say what you want here - but as in all societies, there are rules. Even here on the forum. Break the rules, face the consequence (or don't visit the forum). --edit; I've marked the thread as abusive.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Give it a break Eddy. This is a programmers forum - not a political forum. But if you can express your opinion then surely there is no harm in my doing the same. If you read all of my comments then you will realize you have completely misunderstood the entire context of my OP. Finally, you need to spend more than a few years reading the Soapbox, as I have, in order to realize your notion of what constitutes abuse is not the same as those who make the rules here. There is nothing I have said that can even remotely be construed as abusive in regards to this forum. Cheers, Ian
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Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
The question was, how do I spend it?
I vote for fishing.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
A great idea, but just not up here (i.e. Canada) and just now. Up here, the lakes are frozen over. But we always have a few who win the Darwin Award of the Year for not 'believing' a truck and ice house are not heavy enough to go through the ice. Cheers, Ian
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Give it a break Eddy. This is a programmers forum - not a political forum. But if you can express your opinion then surely there is no harm in my doing the same. If you read all of my comments then you will realize you have completely misunderstood the entire context of my OP. Finally, you need to spend more than a few years reading the Soapbox, as I have, in order to realize your notion of what constitutes abuse is not the same as those who make the rules here. There is nothing I have said that can even remotely be construed as abusive in regards to this forum. Cheers, Ian
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
But if you can express your opinion then surely there is no harm in my doing the same.
That's why we have that law - expressing that it did not happen is not an opinion; it is merely stating that the facts are incorrect. We can still point you to the consequences of what happened.
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
There is nothing I have said that can even remotely be construed as abusive in regards to this forum.
"something you wouldn't want your kid sister to read"
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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Could you be right? Sure. Are you likely right? I doubt it. As you pointed out, there are two sides to every story (at a minimum!) So Amazon's side of the story is probably something along these lines: People (generally) don't know how to think critically anymore. A person can still be smart, but people (especially those in Amazon's first and presumably still primary market, the US,) are a rather ignorant and easily cowed lot anymore. If we (Amazon) offer to sell books that hold an unpopular opinion, we (Amazon) will most likely be seen to support that point of view. This will lead to loss of customer base, and lost revenue, which is obviously a bad thing. Any special interest group can go to Amazon and ask them to stop selling X or Y product for A or B reason. But being a business, they aren't going to do anything that negatively affects profits. Could they be bribed enough money to more than compensate for lost sales? Maybe. But could you imagine the even bigger hit to sales if that bribery ever came to light? I doubt there's enough money available in circulation to compensate for the precipitous fall Amazon could be subjected to for a misstep. Now, as to the Holocaust issue (I promise to keep this lounge worthy,) I am not a Holocaust denier. I'm only 31, so obviously I have no first hand proof one way or the other. I've also never met a survivor to hear their story, so no second hand knowledge either. However, it seems silly to deny that the Holocaust ever happened, given that it would require millions of people to have lied about what happened during that period (which borders on conspiracy levels of paranoia to think that everyone would cover it up...) I also believe that the motivations leading to the atrocities of the Holocaust are many and varied. I won't go as far as to say they were justified (because seriously, any grown person should understand that what happened was objectively wrong,) but sometimes situations get so far out of hand that it is beyond one person to correct. I'm glad that someone took the time to explore the issue from both sides and get it published. At the very least, understanding the reasons and motivations of the Nazi party will help prevent something similar from ever happening again.
Another thoughtful and considerate respond. Thank you. But again, as I have stated and implied in other comments, my intention was never to spark a political discussion. I am just coming off an intense refactoring session and am just blowing off a little steam. The honest truth is I simply needed an interesting diversion that will help me to relax, I inadvertently came across a blog commentary about Amazon and this led me down the proverbial rabbit hole. For the record, I have never and do not deny any of the atrocities that were committed in WW2. I am a strong believer in hearing both sides of every story and my curiosity leads me to read this particular book. What I find most interesting is some of the 'blowback' I have received so far and this is another of the points addressed in the first and only chapter I've read so far. I am getting the impression the issue is comparable to religious indoctrination and must never be questioned. If this is true, that would be a very, very interesting and telling observation. Cheers, Ian
