Infinite Universe?
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Apparently the number (-1/12) crops up in quantum physics so maybe not so philosophical after all.
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Apparently the number (-1/12) crops up in quantum physics so maybe not so philosophical after all.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Apparently the number (-1/12) crops up in quantum physics
I'd like to see that! Oh, wait, "crops up". That only exists in someones calculations they are doing. Yes, I'm trolling you. Just kidding. I understand what you mean, but do consider the Scientific Method[^], won't you? :-D
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raddevus wrote:
science cannot deal with infinite.
The sum of all positive integer numbers from 1 to infinity is -1/12. Proven by science :)
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Proven by science :)
For a specific value of "proven". :laugh: Ramanujan: Making sense of 1+2+3+... = -1/12 and Co. - YouTube[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Fortunately the universe is not
So good to see a Scientist who is committed to making sense. The Universe cannot be infinite since no physical thing could ever be infinite. Infinite is simply a philosophical concept until you get to metaphysical. So, science cannot deal with infinite. I'm glad we've had this discussion.
raddevus wrote:
The Universe cannot be infinite
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Possibly not. In which case, what is beyond the edges of this non-infinite universe? More universes? If so, what demarcates the edges of this one and the edges of the others? Can they not all be part of a larger universe? PS. My finite brain has just thrown a "Value out of range Exception"!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Maybe "space" is infinite, but the big-ball-of-wobbly-stuff we call "the Universe" isn't? :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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raddevus wrote:
science cannot deal with infinite.
The sum of all positive integer numbers from 1 to infinity is -1/12. Proven by science :)
Seems like that's an integer underflow problem -- you need a bigger processor.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Termi Nater wrote:
basically he says crazy should be kept out of rational business
I certainly hope he disincluded himself then. :laugh: Sincerely, Zigmound Fraud
heres the executive summary: [The Freud Museum ~ Education ~ Freud and Religion](https://www.freud.org.uk/education/topic/10573/subtopic/40000/) As far as I know he didn't quite disinclude himself, probably because clear cut conclusions are easy only for stupid people.
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Perhaps more realistically or at least more philosophically pleasing, a finite universe could still be unbounded, for example if it is a 3-ball or 3-torus or something like that. That would mean that you could travel an infinite amount in any direction and never find "the edge" (since there is no edge) but you may find yourself returning to a place you've been before. The volume would be finite that way, but you don't have to worry about how space itself can even have an edge at all and what that might look like. But it isn't really known whether it's finite or not in the first place. It seems to be flat and isotropic, if it actually is flat and isotropic then it is infinite. But it might not be exactly flat, it might be curved less than could be measured so far. Or it might not be isotropic, or both.
My theory: The universe is like an expanding balloon with everything that currently exists sitting on the surface. Heavy objects like black holes, stars, and planets sink into the surface warping space-time to create gravity. If you could travel at a rate faster than expansion, you would eventually come back around to the starting point. The interior of the balloon is the past.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Proven by science :)
For a specific value of "proven". :laugh: Ramanujan: Making sense of 1+2+3+... = -1/12 and Co. - YouTube[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
Ramanujan: Making sense of 1+2+3+... = -1/12 and Co. - YouTube[^]
Thanks! Very Interesting!
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
An infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of keyboards, aware this as a possible random outcome of their typing, would all kill themselves, first.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Forogar wrote:
Assuming the Universe is infinite
Fortunately the universe is not. ;) Marc
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I think it is infinite. Give me a minute... I think I have a map around here some place that proves it.
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heres the executive summary: [The Freud Museum ~ Education ~ Freud and Religion](https://www.freud.org.uk/education/topic/10573/subtopic/40000/) As far as I know he didn't quite disinclude himself, probably because clear cut conclusions are easy only for stupid people.
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raddevus wrote:
The Universe cannot be infinite
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically.
Actually no. I disagree with you that infinity is impossible in a physical world. And I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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raddevus wrote:
I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically.
Actually no. I disagree with you that infinity is impossible in a physical world. And I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
It means your world (Universe) is smaller than you thought...and then instantly it is far, far larger. (You know? :) Because there's a whole other side to the Universe thing.) :)
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible.
So it's impossible because it's impossible? That seems a little recursive. :-D
raddevus wrote:
It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe.
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion light-year wide bubble of stuff, there's no way to know whether that's true. All we can say is that there's a finite amount of stuff in our finite bubble. I guess it depends on whether we define "the Universe" as everything within our connected spacetime that could have a chance to interact with us and vice versa[^], or the entirety of the space in which our bubble exists. And we haven't even touched on which "infinity" we're talking about! ;P Aleph number - Wikipedia[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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raddevus wrote:
Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible.
So it's impossible because it's impossible? That seems a little recursive. :-D
raddevus wrote:
It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe.
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion light-year wide bubble of stuff, there's no way to know whether that's true. All we can say is that there's a finite amount of stuff in our finite bubble. I guess it depends on whether we define "the Universe" as everything within our connected spacetime that could have a chance to interact with us and vice versa[^], or the entirety of the space in which our bubble exists. And we haven't even touched on which "infinity" we're talking about! ;P Aleph number - Wikipedia[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion...
And this was actually my entire point. No way to know. Except, most "scientists" and mathematicians believe there is a limit to everything (energy) -- except philosophical debates. :) And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do. :laugh:
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You seem to be dodging the question. ;)
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
