Infinite Universe?
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I'm saying something much more important here. I'm saying that the Universe is physical. If it isn't then we are talking about something that could even be an intelligence and then forget about understanding anything. I'm saying that since the Universe is physical and we are physical then it has a limit. An infinite anything instantly goes beyond physical and instantly becomes metaphysical and we cannot even hope to begin to study it. So, if we are going to believe in a mechanical Universe then it has a limit. If it has a limit then what is on the other sides? That is the real question. If it doesn't have a limit (if it were infinite) then it is not mechanical and physical.
The rule is that measurable quantities cannot be infinite, but an infinite universe doesn't have a proper size let alone a measurable size. There is no contradiction here, an infinite universe can be physical. Whether talking about "the other side" even makes sense depends on the nature of the finiteness
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No. I'm saying, The Universe is physical and mechanical, therefore finite. I believe that most of your major scientists believe this too. They speak of "almost" infinite but never infinite. I don't believe anyone other than school children actually believe in any physical object that is infinite. Infinite is just a concept, but not reality in the mechanical universe. All physical (non-philosophical conceptual) things have limits. That's all my point is.
That still leaves the question: if the universe has a finite boundary, what is beyond that boundary? Or are you saying that spacetime is a localized concept that has no meaning "outside" of our universe? (Not that there would be an "outside" in that case. Or a "before".)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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no sign of intelligent life in the observable universe
Including this planet!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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The rule is that measurable quantities cannot be infinite, but an infinite universe doesn't have a proper size let alone a measurable size. There is no contradiction here, an infinite universe can be physical. Whether talking about "the other side" even makes sense depends on the nature of the finiteness
Consider this: you have a ruler made of plastic that is infinitely long. So you hold out your ruler and it extends to infinity. What!?! Instantly, we all know that is impossible. It's a physical thing. Only conceptually can something continue to go on forever. Thus, the Universe, which is made up of the same basic elements that the ruler is made up of, cannot possibly be infinite. So, the Universe has to be at least slightly less than infinite. But as soon as it is not infinite then you can reach the edge (end) and ponder what is on the other side.
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The rule is that measurable quantities cannot be infinite, but an infinite universe doesn't have a proper size let alone a measurable size. There is no contradiction here, an infinite universe can be physical. Whether talking about "the other side" even makes sense depends on the nature of the finiteness
harold aptroot wrote:
The rule is that measurable quantities cannot be infinite, but an infinite universe doesn't have a proper size
This is a very interesting point too, because it feels similar to "a system under observation changes". As if the size of the Universe changes to finite when we find the end or measure it, but is conceptually infinite.
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Richard Deeming wrote:
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion...
And this was actually my entire point. No way to know. Except, most "scientists" and mathematicians believe there is a limit to everything (energy) -- except philosophical debates. :) And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do. :laugh:
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And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do.
Brian Greene doesn't deserve to be in that list imho. He is to physics, what Dr. Phil is to psychology.
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Consider this: you have a ruler made of plastic that is infinitely long. So you hold out your ruler and it extends to infinity. What!?! Instantly, we all know that is impossible. It's a physical thing. Only conceptually can something continue to go on forever. Thus, the Universe, which is made up of the same basic elements that the ruler is made up of, cannot possibly be infinite. So, the Universe has to be at least slightly less than infinite. But as soon as it is not infinite then you can reach the edge (end) and ponder what is on the other side.
raddevus wrote:
that is impossible
Would that also apply to singularities?
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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That still leaves the question: if the universe has a finite boundary, what is beyond that boundary? Or are you saying that spacetime is a localized concept that has no meaning "outside" of our universe? (Not that there would be an "outside" in that case. Or a "before".)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
That still leaves the question: if the universe has a finite boundary, what is beyond that boundary?
This too is a point I was attempting to drive toward in a logical manner. Though I freely admit my knowledge of any of this is very, very basic. This was an idea too that at some point studying the physical mechanical universe becomes a study of metaphysical properties (when you reach the end of the physical).
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And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do.
Brian Greene doesn't deserve to be in that list imho. He is to physics, what Dr. Phil is to psychology.
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Consider this: you have a ruler made of plastic that is infinitely long. So you hold out your ruler and it extends to infinity. What!?! Instantly, we all know that is impossible. It's a physical thing. Only conceptually can something continue to go on forever. Thus, the Universe, which is made up of the same basic elements that the ruler is made up of, cannot possibly be infinite. So, the Universe has to be at least slightly less than infinite. But as soon as it is not infinite then you can reach the edge (end) and ponder what is on the other side.
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raddevus wrote:
that is impossible
Would that also apply to singularities?
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
jeron1 wrote:
Would that also apply to singularities?
I'm going to provide an answer that no other scientist would give: I don't know. :laugh: However, I believe a singularity is simply the first-cause, right? Just the point at which something begins. Again, I guess this has to be only conceptual because we have no way of testing to get back to the first-cause. But, mostly, I don't know. :)
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The universe isn't made out of stuff, it's filled with stuff. That's something completely different. An infinite universe doesn't have infinite rulers (or walkways or whatever) in it, there is no physical object extending forever.
harold aptroot wrote:
there is no physical object extending forever
I knew you'd end up agreeing with me. :laugh: EDIT
harold aptroot wrote:
The universe isn't made out of stuff
Notice how deftly I ignored your main point? That's because I would say, "well, what is it then? Not physical? What!?" and then the discussion would continue ad infinitum. :)
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harold aptroot wrote:
there is no physical object extending forever
I knew you'd end up agreeing with me. :laugh: EDIT
harold aptroot wrote:
The universe isn't made out of stuff
Notice how deftly I ignored your main point? That's because I would say, "well, what is it then? Not physical? What!?" and then the discussion would continue ad infinitum. :)
The universe is, essentially, spacetime with fillings. It doesn't make much sense to ask what space and time are made out of. "Not physical" is not the description I'd use given that your alternative is metaphysics, but it's not like "one big physical object", more like "the space in which other things are" (plus the things, just to be all-inclusive).
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
No, not quite. The universe can be infinite without having infinite mass or infinite number of particles. "infinite" just means it doesn't stop. Take a number and divide it by 2. Keep going. Forever. That's infinite.
cheers Chris Maunder
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The universe is, essentially, spacetime with fillings. It doesn't make much sense to ask what space and time are made out of. "Not physical" is not the description I'd use given that your alternative is metaphysics, but it's not like "one big physical object", more like "the space in which other things are" (plus the things, just to be all-inclusive).
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No. I'm saying, The Universe is physical and mechanical, therefore finite. I believe that most of your major scientists believe this too. They speak of "almost" infinite but never infinite. I don't believe anyone other than school children actually believe in any physical object that is infinite. Infinite is just a concept, but not reality in the mechanical universe. All physical (non-philosophical conceptual) things have limits. That's all my point is.
raddevus wrote:
All physical (non-philosophical conceptual) things have limits
Prove it.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Imagine you are an ant on the surface of the doughnut.... What do you find at the end of the doughnut?
I see empty space above the doughnut. But perception does not change reality in this case.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Out of curiosity.. didn't you understand my explanation? or are you trolling? I am really confused whether I need to explain or not...
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite
Say what? You lost me right there.
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Possibly not. In which case, what is beyond the edges of this non-infinite universe? More universes? If so, what demarcates the edges of this one and the edges of the others? Can they not all be part of a larger universe? PS. My finite brain has just thrown a "Value out of range Exception"!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
what is beyond the edges of this non-infinite universe?
IMO, the question cannot be answered because nothingness is still conceptually "the lack of something", so there is no "beyond," but that's similarly a null reference exception! But realistically, I suspect no one, even given an infinite amount of time, would ever be able to know, because the universe will end before we can reach even the point where light from the edge could reach us. Now, that's another conundrum -- if the universe ends in time, what does it end as? Marc
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
How can something run into infinite if it had a beginning. What i want to say is, that the universe is bound to the subject that made it possible. So for example once the Sustainer disposes it, it no longer can be infinite it will be set to absolute nothing. Only in theoretical Math values can have a beginning and be infinite, but again, even so, when the environment is disposed, then that loop will also crash, because there will be no spectator and no physics. Do you not realize that the world is programmed just as you program something, only the Creator of everything is exactly knowing what He is doing, He is most-excellent at it. Do you expect yourself a programer and your apps intelligent design, while the universe and "life" came from Nothing?
