Your experience please...
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I'm thinking to open a second career as freelancer, preferably online... I Googled around and found some sites, that may help, but would like to hear about your personal experience and tips... Thanks!
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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I'm thinking to open a second career as freelancer, preferably online... I Googled around and found some sites, that may help, but would like to hear about your personal experience and tips... Thanks!
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Depends how bogged down you want to get in work.. I had the same idea a few years ago, but it just ended up taking over my life. I've been reading [this book](https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp/0307465357/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20) and although some of it is a bit gimmicky, I'd say he's correct in where we should be heading in life (i.e. working less - or at least more efficiently - and enjoying life more). I read [this one](https://www.amazon.com/Business-Idea-Factory-World-Class-Successful-ebook/dp/B01ITHVQG2) recently too which changed the way I approach ideas. All in all, I've decided that I'll concentrate on non-tech business ideas that take very little of my time outside of work.
Now is it bad enough that you let somebody else kick your butts without you trying to do it to each other? Now if we're all talking about the same man, and I think we are... it appears he's got a rather growing collection of our bikes.
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I'm thinking to open a second career as freelancer, preferably online... I Googled around and found some sites, that may help, but would like to hear about your personal experience and tips... Thanks!
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
I've tried a variety of those sites. I had high hopes for [this one](https://weworkremotely.com/), but quickly realized the majority of job listings are in languages like Ruby. X| Of the other ones I've sent my resume to, none ever responded. My experience searching Dice, SO jobs, and others for remote work, same thing -- never a single response. So, at the end of the day, I come to the same conclusion I always have -- if you want to get into freelancing, it's the people you know that can help you find a project. Also, not sure if you work full time already, but if you do, freelancing (or, more accurately, moonlighting) can be very difficult not only because of the extra work you're putting in, but most clients don't work when the moon is out, so communicating can become a conflict of interest, etc. On the other hand, I have a great relationship with a client 3 timezones away, which means that when I get home at 5 PM, it's only 2 PM where he works, and he frequently comes in on weekends. Plus, I've arranged my current "sit in a drab windowless cube" contract to be only 3 days a week, so I have 2 full work days to do other stuff. One other important thing -- my resume reads like a time traveling Marc-clone multiverse. Work spans years, has gaps, has simultaneous jobs, etc. Once you start going down that path, realize that any potential future employer is going to see that as a red flag, particularly doing multiple jobs at once. They want you in a cage, they have security/IP concerns, etc. They do not want free birds. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I'm thinking to open a second career as freelancer, preferably online... I Googled around and found some sites, that may help, but would like to hear about your personal experience and tips... Thanks!
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Anecdote: My younger brother makes a whole lot more money than I; has bigger house, fancier car - always buys top-end stuff. He also works (in my opinion) ridiculous hours, for quite a while, held two jobs (7 days/week) in order to keep this up. So - the question becomes what's the point of all of that neat stuff when you've no time to enjoy any of it? And that's the question for you - when sizing up this second career: how much do you need the money, and if it's not for true necessities, how will you be able to enjoy the fruits of excessive labor? One way I put it: how much will you charge me for an hour of your life? Not an 'end' hour, but a nice juicy current one? How many are you willing to sell?[^]
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Anecdote: My younger brother makes a whole lot more money than I; has bigger house, fancier car - always buys top-end stuff. He also works (in my opinion) ridiculous hours, for quite a while, held two jobs (7 days/week) in order to keep this up. So - the question becomes what's the point of all of that neat stuff when you've no time to enjoy any of it? And that's the question for you - when sizing up this second career: how much do you need the money, and if it's not for true necessities, how will you be able to enjoy the fruits of excessive labor? One way I put it: how much will you charge me for an hour of your life? Not an 'end' hour, but a nice juicy current one? How many are you willing to sell?[^]
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'm looking to build a second career to slowly drop the first... not to hold to both... As today I already work 4 days a week, but the hours and requirements are less to my taste as time passing by, so I was thinking to do some freelancer work more of my choice...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
-
I've tried a variety of those sites. I had high hopes for [this one](https://weworkremotely.com/), but quickly realized the majority of job listings are in languages like Ruby. X| Of the other ones I've sent my resume to, none ever responded. My experience searching Dice, SO jobs, and others for remote work, same thing -- never a single response. So, at the end of the day, I come to the same conclusion I always have -- if you want to get into freelancing, it's the people you know that can help you find a project. Also, not sure if you work full time already, but if you do, freelancing (or, more accurately, moonlighting) can be very difficult not only because of the extra work you're putting in, but most clients don't work when the moon is out, so communicating can become a conflict of interest, etc. On the other hand, I have a great relationship with a client 3 timezones away, which means that when I get home at 5 PM, it's only 2 PM where he works, and he frequently comes in on weekends. Plus, I've arranged my current "sit in a drab windowless cube" contract to be only 3 days a week, so I have 2 full work days to do other stuff. One other important thing -- my resume reads like a time traveling Marc-clone multiverse. Work spans years, has gaps, has simultaneous jobs, etc. Once you start going down that path, realize that any potential future employer is going to see that as a red flag, particularly doing multiple jobs at once. They want you in a cage, they have security/IP concerns, etc. They do not want free birds. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
it's the people you know that can help you find a project
I had that a few years ago, but the jobs my brother-in-law found was consulting and didn't liked it much... however I will check current opportunities... :thumbsup:
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Depends how bogged down you want to get in work.. I had the same idea a few years ago, but it just ended up taking over my life. I've been reading [this book](https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp/0307465357/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20) and although some of it is a bit gimmicky, I'd say he's correct in where we should be heading in life (i.e. working less - or at least more efficiently - and enjoying life more). I read [this one](https://www.amazon.com/Business-Idea-Factory-World-Class-Successful-ebook/dp/B01ITHVQG2) recently too which changed the way I approach ideas. All in all, I've decided that I'll concentrate on non-tech business ideas that take very little of my time outside of work.
Now is it bad enough that you let somebody else kick your butts without you trying to do it to each other? Now if we're all talking about the same man, and I think we are... it appears he's got a rather growing collection of our bikes.
I'm not sure I understand you here... I'm not looking for developing a business idea, but find some contract work - online mostly - that I can do for living...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
-
I'm looking to build a second career to slowly drop the first... not to hold to both... As today I already work 4 days a week, but the hours and requirements are less to my taste as time passing by, so I was thinking to do some freelancer work more of my choice...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Until a couple of years ago, I was working as a contractor. In some ways, the time was my own, but that was fully offset by how I had to keep selling it. All the days off I wanted - because I didn't get paid for them. Now, although limited in amount, I get paid leave. If you don't get hired as a full-timer, then you do have a second job, anyway, which is finding work for the first job. That being preached, if you can do work you like and get paid for it - that's one of the real targets of life. Ultimately - whatever you do - the same contradiction applies: "You need to prepare for tomorrow - in case you live that long." - Balboos, 2017.07.31
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
I'm not sure I understand you here... I'm not looking for developing a business idea, but find some contract work - online mostly - that I can do for living...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
I'm not looking for developing a business idea, but find some contract work - online mostly - that I can do for living...
You've used two different terms: 1) Freelancing 2) Contracting There's a big difference between the two. I've done both (at the same time and apart), but now I focus solely on contracting 9-5 Monday to Friday. Freelancing on the other hand had me working 7 days a week from 7am to at least 11pm (and more often way after midnight). Contracting and freelancing are both (technically) business ideas. In both cases, you will usually be the owner and director of a registered business. You'll agree contracts, perform services, issue (and chase up) invoices, collect and pay taxes and have some kind of payroll mechanism. All of which takes time (aside from the actual coding). My advice was - if you already have permanent employment - to either a) quit your permanent job and go contracting, or b) keep your permanent job and find another way to make your fortune (one that doesn't suck every hour of your life away for too little return).
Now is it bad enough that you let somebody else kick your butts without you trying to do it to each other? Now if we're all talking about the same man, and I think we are... it appears he's got a rather growing collection of our bikes.
-
I've tried a variety of those sites. I had high hopes for [this one](https://weworkremotely.com/), but quickly realized the majority of job listings are in languages like Ruby. X| Of the other ones I've sent my resume to, none ever responded. My experience searching Dice, SO jobs, and others for remote work, same thing -- never a single response. So, at the end of the day, I come to the same conclusion I always have -- if you want to get into freelancing, it's the people you know that can help you find a project. Also, not sure if you work full time already, but if you do, freelancing (or, more accurately, moonlighting) can be very difficult not only because of the extra work you're putting in, but most clients don't work when the moon is out, so communicating can become a conflict of interest, etc. On the other hand, I have a great relationship with a client 3 timezones away, which means that when I get home at 5 PM, it's only 2 PM where he works, and he frequently comes in on weekends. Plus, I've arranged my current "sit in a drab windowless cube" contract to be only 3 days a week, so I have 2 full work days to do other stuff. One other important thing -- my resume reads like a time traveling Marc-clone multiverse. Work spans years, has gaps, has simultaneous jobs, etc. Once you start going down that path, realize that any potential future employer is going to see that as a red flag, particularly doing multiple jobs at once. They want you in a cage, they have security/IP concerns, etc. They do not want free birds. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
They want you in a cage, they have security/IP concerns, etc. They do not want free birds.
That's what Skynet said when I still worked on it.
-
I'm thinking to open a second career as freelancer, preferably online... I Googled around and found some sites, that may help, but would like to hear about your personal experience and tips... Thanks!
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
long time ago tried the frelancing sites, found out the average ad receives thousands of replies, 90% from India/similar IT sweat shop agents - cheap, crap. Pretty much have to be one of the first replies to get a sniff in, once someone (reasonable, as local as possible) is found that fits the rest are ignored. One way to develop contacts while working for someone else: It is conflict of interest to approach clients you may be posted at, don't do it - it's trouble. But.... if you know of somebody at that client that is leaving (to a similar or ideally higher post), you can approach and can ask them to keep you in mind for when they move to their new place - their is no conflict in that - and if you hit the right one it's what gets the ball rolling on a far more gentle slope. first time you want something that gives you absolute minimum 6 months (push for 1 year): if they only got a couple of weeks or months even with a "probably some more" it's not worth quitting your job for - you will be hungry by Christmas. When you are in that project study that industry and as soon as possible find and get into the local circle of the industry you are doing the work for, yes including your current contracting companies competitors (i.e. what trade shows they go to, listen for any names or hints others are looking for a system or expanding... of course not too publicly. But when you get the cance to any impress them how much you understand their business, you tout yourself as an the IT expert of their industry. Note: if talking to other potential leads absolutely never drop or sell any secrets/issues/rumors of the current/prior hirer - never - it will not impress if you seem willing to share their industries players secrets (their competitors or not - as a contractor you are an outsider). Couple or few years later: If you've pulled off at least a couple or three good jobs in that industry now you full on sell yourself, if no job on roll into their shop and tell them what you want to do (may not get that particular project but if they are impressed with your knowledge of their business, and proof you did well in the jobs for the others, they will strongly consider you (even most likely for "something else they've always be thinking about.") - be ready to answer questions using their buzzwords and language - do not confuse them with IT speak, [wither jf] DO NOT play buzzword bingo.
Sin tack the any key okay
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
I'm not looking for developing a business idea, but find some contract work - online mostly - that I can do for living...
You've used two different terms: 1) Freelancing 2) Contracting There's a big difference between the two. I've done both (at the same time and apart), but now I focus solely on contracting 9-5 Monday to Friday. Freelancing on the other hand had me working 7 days a week from 7am to at least 11pm (and more often way after midnight). Contracting and freelancing are both (technically) business ideas. In both cases, you will usually be the owner and director of a registered business. You'll agree contracts, perform services, issue (and chase up) invoices, collect and pay taxes and have some kind of payroll mechanism. All of which takes time (aside from the actual coding). My advice was - if you already have permanent employment - to either a) quit your permanent job and go contracting, or b) keep your permanent job and find another way to make your fortune (one that doesn't suck every hour of your life away for too little return).
Now is it bad enough that you let somebody else kick your butts without you trying to do it to each other? Now if we're all talking about the same man, and I think we are... it appears he's got a rather growing collection of our bikes.
Brent Jenkins wrote:
You'll agree contracts, perform services, issue (and chase up) invoices, collect and pay taxes and have some kind of payroll mechanism
Damn I remember those days when cash flow/income was like a roller coaster. I enjoyed the work but the admin killed me. Changed to 9-5 contracting 20 years ago and have not looked back. I'm now looking at transition to retirement, who wants a part time 63yo developer specializing in WPF :laugh: .
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I've tried a variety of those sites. I had high hopes for [this one](https://weworkremotely.com/), but quickly realized the majority of job listings are in languages like Ruby. X| Of the other ones I've sent my resume to, none ever responded. My experience searching Dice, SO jobs, and others for remote work, same thing -- never a single response. So, at the end of the day, I come to the same conclusion I always have -- if you want to get into freelancing, it's the people you know that can help you find a project. Also, not sure if you work full time already, but if you do, freelancing (or, more accurately, moonlighting) can be very difficult not only because of the extra work you're putting in, but most clients don't work when the moon is out, so communicating can become a conflict of interest, etc. On the other hand, I have a great relationship with a client 3 timezones away, which means that when I get home at 5 PM, it's only 2 PM where he works, and he frequently comes in on weekends. Plus, I've arranged my current "sit in a drab windowless cube" contract to be only 3 days a week, so I have 2 full work days to do other stuff. One other important thing -- my resume reads like a time traveling Marc-clone multiverse. Work spans years, has gaps, has simultaneous jobs, etc. Once you start going down that path, realize that any potential future employer is going to see that as a red flag, particularly doing multiple jobs at once. They want you in a cage, they have security/IP concerns, etc. They do not want free birds. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
if you want to get into freelancing, it's the people you know that can help you find a project
Completely true in my case as well. One of my previous org work on small to medium projects. Since I parted with them on a good term, they came back to me asking if I'll be interested in freelancing. And, that's how I got started. It's really hard to convince a stranger especially now, when there already are too many players. I know couple of orgz who do full time bidding on these freelance sites. They have bunch of devs at there disposal. There ratings are high. It's really hard to compete with them as an individual. So, back to you what you just said that, people you know are indeed the real deal.
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Brent Jenkins wrote:
You'll agree contracts, perform services, issue (and chase up) invoices, collect and pay taxes and have some kind of payroll mechanism
Damn I remember those days when cash flow/income was like a roller coaster. I enjoyed the work but the admin killed me. Changed to 9-5 contracting 20 years ago and have not looked back. I'm now looking at transition to retirement, who wants a part time 63yo developer specializing in WPF :laugh: .
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Yeah, it was enjoyable.. I even got to the stage where I had a couple of developers working for me, but I made the mistake of being too involved in the actual coding work when I should have been stepping away from that. That and all the admin work, plus getting a continuous flow of work in became overwhelming in the end. 9-5 contracting seems to end up paying more, needing less effort out of hours and allows me to look at other avenues (non tech related).
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
who wants a part time 63yo developer specializing in WPF
I don't know how much Xamarin work there is out there at the moment, but it's not that different to WPF.. :)
Now is it bad enough that you let somebody else kick your butts without you trying to do it to each other? Now if we're all talking about the same man, and I think we are... it appears he's got a rather growing collection of our bikes.
-
long time ago tried the frelancing sites, found out the average ad receives thousands of replies, 90% from India/similar IT sweat shop agents - cheap, crap. Pretty much have to be one of the first replies to get a sniff in, once someone (reasonable, as local as possible) is found that fits the rest are ignored. One way to develop contacts while working for someone else: It is conflict of interest to approach clients you may be posted at, don't do it - it's trouble. But.... if you know of somebody at that client that is leaving (to a similar or ideally higher post), you can approach and can ask them to keep you in mind for when they move to their new place - their is no conflict in that - and if you hit the right one it's what gets the ball rolling on a far more gentle slope. first time you want something that gives you absolute minimum 6 months (push for 1 year): if they only got a couple of weeks or months even with a "probably some more" it's not worth quitting your job for - you will be hungry by Christmas. When you are in that project study that industry and as soon as possible find and get into the local circle of the industry you are doing the work for, yes including your current contracting companies competitors (i.e. what trade shows they go to, listen for any names or hints others are looking for a system or expanding... of course not too publicly. But when you get the cance to any impress them how much you understand their business, you tout yourself as an the IT expert of their industry. Note: if talking to other potential leads absolutely never drop or sell any secrets/issues/rumors of the current/prior hirer - never - it will not impress if you seem willing to share their industries players secrets (their competitors or not - as a contractor you are an outsider). Couple or few years later: If you've pulled off at least a couple or three good jobs in that industry now you full on sell yourself, if no job on roll into their shop and tell them what you want to do (may not get that particular project but if they are impressed with your knowledge of their business, and proof you did well in the jobs for the others, they will strongly consider you (even most likely for "something else they've always be thinking about.") - be ready to answer questions using their buzzwords and language - do not confuse them with IT speak, [wither jf] DO NOT play buzzword bingo.
Sin tack the any key okay
I second @Lopatir's experience--mine has been almost exactly the same. If you are going into the world as a individual contractor, you're going to be working the business side of things, too. You can get "brilliant coder" positions, but almost never directly. In my experience, it's feast or famine with contracting. There were a couple of years where I worked my butt off and made crazy money...followed by a year and a half where I was getting well below minimum wage, when averaged out. In that case, my problem was that I let myself become too dependent on my "guy" who was getting me work. His contacts dried up, and I didn't have many of my own. The last bit of advice is where I am now. After some time, one of the sites where I did some particularly complex work asked me to come back. It's about low-middle industry average, but the pay is steady and my wife appreciates the predictable hours. I haven't given up on going alone again. Once you've worked as a masterless ronin, it can be addicting (flexible hours, freedom to give your best technical opinion on things, etc). But you also learn to appreciate some stability and not get all worked up about job security. After all, you've made it on your own before...
vuolsi così colà dove si puote ciò che si vuole, e più non dimandare --The answer to Minos and any question of "Why are we doing it this way?"
