Google fires employee who wrote memo expressing views on gender and technical proficiency
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I haven't read his memo, but I can understand his perceived frustration. At a former job, there was a government requirement that large companies have an ethnic make up and gender mix in the company that matched the community they were in. Every employee was required to fill out a survey identifying their ethnic background and gender; a fellow employee, an ethnic minority female, decided that her people had been slighted so, identified herself as a Caucasian male to skew the results. The requirement had NOTHING to do with having the best people for the job: it was simply forcing quotas on employment and management levels based on a survey that wasn't verified. Yes, I could have lied about my ethnic background and gender... how about honesty and hiring the best people for the job?
Whenever the government gets involved things get worse - always. But I digress and I'll save that conversation for the soapbox. :sigh:
Jeremy Falcon
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NY Times: [^]
Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO — Google on Monday fired a software engineer who wrote an internal memo that questioned the company’s diversity efforts and argued that the low number of women in technical positions was a result of biological differences instead of discrimination.
More coverage on Motherboard including complete memo: [^]
«While I complain of being able to see only a shadow of the past, I may be insensitive to reality as it is now, since I'm not at a stage of development where I'm capable of seeing it. A few hundred years later another traveler despairing as myself, may mourn the disappearance of what I may have seen, but failed to see.» Claude Levi-Strauss (Tristes Tropiques, 1955)
Oh don't get me started on this. I realize freedom of speech applies moreso to the government. But even outside of that, humanity will never advance if we always censor those who don't agree with us.
Jeremy Falcon
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Oh don't get me started on this. I realize freedom of speech applies moreso to the government. But even outside of that, humanity will never advance if we always censor those who don't agree with us.
Jeremy Falcon
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private employers are not the government. (yet)
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Totally agree.
Jeremy Falcon
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I haven't read his memo, but I can understand his perceived frustration. At a former job, there was a government requirement that large companies have an ethnic make up and gender mix in the company that matched the community they were in. Every employee was required to fill out a survey identifying their ethnic background and gender; a fellow employee, an ethnic minority female, decided that her people had been slighted so, identified herself as a Caucasian male to skew the results. The requirement had NOTHING to do with having the best people for the job: it was simply forcing quotas on employment and management levels based on a survey that wasn't verified. Yes, I could have lied about my ethnic background and gender... how about honesty and hiring the best people for the job?
Tim Carmichael wrote:
how about honesty and hiring the best people for the job?
While I do agree on that it has been proven that white men are usually considered the best people for the job, whether they are or not. Personally, I know more than one person who wouldn't be comfortable with a black doctor. One person even said "when your doctor is black he probably doesn't even speak proper Dutch." (and he was serious!) I'm assuming black doctors also have to go through six (I believe) years of University. How the hell do you figure he doesn't speak Dutch!? :omg: And this came from a gay person so he should know a thing or two about prejudice and discrimination! :omg: So, we have two doctors, both have had the same education and you have no reason to believe one is better at the job than the other, yet people go for the white (male) doctor :)
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
how about honesty and hiring the best people for the job?
While I do agree on that it has been proven that white men are usually considered the best people for the job, whether they are or not. Personally, I know more than one person who wouldn't be comfortable with a black doctor. One person even said "when your doctor is black he probably doesn't even speak proper Dutch." (and he was serious!) I'm assuming black doctors also have to go through six (I believe) years of University. How the hell do you figure he doesn't speak Dutch!? :omg: And this came from a gay person so he should know a thing or two about prejudice and discrimination! :omg: So, we have two doctors, both have had the same education and you have no reason to believe one is better at the job than the other, yet people go for the white (male) doctor :)
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
When my younger brother was about 3, he had an infection in his throat. My parents rushed him to the hospital because he was having trouble breathing. From my mother, Dr. Brown - a black doctor - ran down the hall rolling up his shirt sleeves and straight into surgery where he performed an emergency tracheotomy. He was more concerned about saving a life than taking time to scrub in... and probably saved my brother's life in the process. Skin color or ethnic background does not make anyone the best person for the job - their ability to DO the job is what matters.
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When my younger brother was about 3, he had an infection in his throat. My parents rushed him to the hospital because he was having trouble breathing. From my mother, Dr. Brown - a black doctor - ran down the hall rolling up his shirt sleeves and straight into surgery where he performed an emergency tracheotomy. He was more concerned about saving a life than taking time to scrub in... and probably saved my brother's life in the process. Skin color or ethnic background does not make anyone the best person for the job - their ability to DO the job is what matters.
Tim Carmichael wrote:
Skin color or ethnic background does not make anyone the best person for the job
Exactly my point... :rolleyes: Except prejudice and bigotry say otherwise. That's why there are quotas. I'm not saying I agree with quotas, but I'm not saying they are evil either.
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Oh don't get me started on this. I realize freedom of speech applies moreso to the government. But even outside of that, humanity will never advance if we always censor those who don't agree with us.
Jeremy Falcon
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private employers are not the government. (yet)
When they are regulated up-the-wazoo, then one could argue they are the gov't.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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This guy was not arrested so his freedom of speech was not compromised or infringed upon in the slightest. He is now suffering from the consequences of his actions but in the USA we do NOT have the right of freedom from consequences. Yet. :rolleyes:
I would argue that the only "consequence" for unwanted, undesirable speech should be more speech directed at the speaker of undesired speech, not loosing one's livelyhood.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I would argue that the only "consequence" for unwanted, undesirable speech should be more speech directed at the speaker of undesired speech, not loosing one's livelyhood.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Businesses have the freedom to employ whom they choose to (within the constraints of immigration law) and I do not think that should be reduced in any way.
Rick York wrote:
within the constraints of immigration and employment law
FTFY I agree. Just saying that I don't think the consequence meets the "crime". It's overblown and overdone. I don't think a valid reason to fire someone is because they disagree with the company "culture" or think differently than the "company line". So long as they can do the job, they should be able to express themselves however they see fit.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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When they are regulated up-the-wazoo, then one could argue they are the gov't.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
one would lose that argument
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one would lose that argument
maybe, but it wouldn't be because it wasn't true.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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maybe, but it wouldn't be because it wasn't true.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
no, it would be because you can't just change the meaning of words to suit your political agenda.
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I would argue that the only "consequence" for unwanted, undesirable speech should be more speech directed at the speaker of undesired speech, not loosing one's livelyhood.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
I agree, but we can't start adding more laws to "fix" this. It just ads more problems to the already overreaching government. But we can call Google stupid idiots for it. :-D
Jeremy Falcon
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I agree, but we can't start adding more laws to "fix" this. It just ads more problems to the already overreaching government. But we can call Google stupid idiots for it. :-D
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
we can't start adding more laws to "fix" this. It just ads more problems to the already overreaching government.
I agree with the second part of your statemen... but you will be proven wrong with the first one. Einstein told it, human stupidity and universe... you know what I mean
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
how about honesty and hiring the best people for the job?
While I do agree on that it has been proven that white men are usually considered the best people for the job, whether they are or not. Personally, I know more than one person who wouldn't be comfortable with a black doctor. One person even said "when your doctor is black he probably doesn't even speak proper Dutch." (and he was serious!) I'm assuming black doctors also have to go through six (I believe) years of University. How the hell do you figure he doesn't speak Dutch!? :omg: And this came from a gay person so he should know a thing or two about prejudice and discrimination! :omg: So, we have two doctors, both have had the same education and you have no reason to believe one is better at the job than the other, yet people go for the white (male) doctor :)
Best, Sander arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript SQL Server for C# Developers Succinctly Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Spot on - the thing is people complaining about "positive discrimination" are failing to address the fact that there is already existing discrimination. Hopefully, over time, both will dwindle to nothing.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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NY Times: [^]
Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO — Google on Monday fired a software engineer who wrote an internal memo that questioned the company’s diversity efforts and argued that the low number of women in technical positions was a result of biological differences instead of discrimination.
More coverage on Motherboard including complete memo: [^]
«While I complain of being able to see only a shadow of the past, I may be insensitive to reality as it is now, since I'm not at a stage of development where I'm capable of seeing it. A few hundred years later another traveler despairing as myself, may mourn the disappearance of what I may have seen, but failed to see.» Claude Levi-Strauss (Tristes Tropiques, 1955)
Pathetic, because reading that memo, he brings up what I think are legitimate points of discussion and consciousness raising. As it stands, all this political correctness we've been seeing over the last 50 years is a double-edged sword -- racism, bias, discrimination: bad. Talking about racism, bias, discrimination has also become "bad" unless you're a graduate of Goddard College (as an example) in which case you're seen as "a radical force for change for a better future" or some such BS when in reality many of the people that pick up these causes are actually suffering from psychological problems. Marc
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