Random Comment of the Day
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I'm an old guy and I'd be pissed if some newbie came in and started telling me how to do my job by fixing something that's not broken! I'd be even more pissed if they wasted my time by showing me examples! :laugh:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I'm an old guy and I'd be pissed if some newbie came in and started telling me how to do my job by fixing something that's not broken! I'd be even more pissed if they wasted my time by showing me examples! :laugh:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
He has a point TBH. You can't "migrate" a col\row based database like Access to an hierarchical one like Mongo. Also it's not just the DB but the things that use it....they will need rewritten and retested. Also anyone who says Mongo is easier to maintain than Access would probably get fired on the spot if I had my way. And Mongo more secure? Didn't a whole bunch of companies get their data hacked because Mongo's default security is "off" so anyone can trawl the net for open ports and get what they want? This sounds like fresh-out-of-uni idealism. You have to respect that in the real world we do have ties to old systems and things are done a certain way for a reason, and it's unlikely you'll appreciate that if it's your first day on the job.
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
I guess she was told it was a dot net SQL environment they were working in?
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Tell her we all said, "Welcome to the real world." She needs to just observe and learn the culture for a while before telling the existing employees that they are doing everything "wrong". I still have to delve into Delphi 6 (circa 2000) code that uses Paradox as the database for crying out loud.
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I agree with you - I think Access is fine when used by experienced DBAs and experienced developers. The problems arise when because of it's apparent ease of setup and use - inexperienced people start creating poorly designed databases with lots of VBA and other horrors that I did with Access databases.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
lots of VBA and other horrors that I did with Access databases
I know exactly how you feel. We all have to get started somewhere and Access is that place for me as well. It's a good thing that I did not dwell there for too long. An experienced DBA took me under their wing to teach me all about SQL Server. They were a good teacher and one of the last few people to earn their SQL Server Master's Certification before Microsoft discontinued the program. That being said, I still cringe when people bring up Access. VBA isn't bad, per se, but you shouldn't be building applications with it. Still, after leaning VBA, taking the next step to VB.Net was pretty simple. From there, I was able to draw on a lot of dabbling in C++ to make the leap to C#. Now I build entire applications from front to back on Windows and the Web. I guess you could consider me a multi-stack developer now :laugh:
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); } Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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He has a point TBH. You can't "migrate" a col\row based database like Access to an hierarchical one like Mongo. Also it's not just the DB but the things that use it....they will need rewritten and retested. Also anyone who says Mongo is easier to maintain than Access would probably get fired on the spot if I had my way. And Mongo more secure? Didn't a whole bunch of companies get their data hacked because Mongo's default security is "off" so anyone can trawl the net for open ports and get what they want? This sounds like fresh-out-of-uni idealism. You have to respect that in the real world we do have ties to old systems and things are done a certain way for a reason, and it's unlikely you'll appreciate that if it's your first day on the job.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
a col\row based database like Access to an hierarchical one like Mongo
Are you suggesting that Access is not a hierarchical db? :confused:
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
You can't fix stupid.
How true!
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Access sucks in so many ways...
Care to elaborate?
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess. If I hear the word 'Access' in an interview, I'm out of there as quickly as I can.I make mistakes only twice: For the first and the last time.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
a col\row based database like Access to an hierarchical one like Mongo
Are you suggesting that Access is not a hierarchical db? :confused:
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yes.
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Yes.
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Tell her we all said, "Welcome to the real world." She needs to just observe and learn the culture for a while before telling the existing employees that they are doing everything "wrong". I still have to delve into Delphi 6 (circa 2000) code that uses Paradox as the database for crying out loud.
since when do employers really listen to their employees, particularly a newbie vs. some old coot that's been there way too long (and worse still may be a friend of the boss / director.) wait a while till the boss knows you're both human doing OK at your job, once that traction achieved suggest they need to review/upgrade before their tech doesn't fit the real word (interface etc.) Suggest they retain consultants to do a full review because they are at risk of loosing a lot of business if they don't upgrade to match their supply/sales chains. sometimes they really do have to pay to accept the truth, whereas if it's just you saying it even 10 years on the old coot's still always going to have the upper hand. (unless sleeping with the boss - but no, don't do that: it never ends well.)
Format Success. Welcome to your new signa&*(gD@@@:beer:@@@@@@*@x@@
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Why? You can create relationships between tables in Access.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Relationships don't make something hierarchical. In Access if you have Order and OrderItem they are two different tables and if you want the Order you do a look-up on Order and if you want the OrderItem you do another lookup using OrderID as a where filter. They are separate buckets of info. With Mongo the data is stored in a hierarchal manner. So once you find the Order, that order has a collection of OrderItems directly inside it.
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Are you a Highly Paid Consultant who charges 10x the cost of a salaried worker when you have to deal with it?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Shhhhhh..... :-D And who the $%%$%$ gets 10x salaried? That's just nonsense.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Relationships don't make something hierarchical. In Access if you have Order and OrderItem they are two different tables and if you want the Order you do a look-up on Order and if you want the OrderItem you do another lookup using OrderID as a where filter. They are separate buckets of info. With Mongo the data is stored in a hierarchal manner. So once you find the Order, that order has a collection of OrderItems directly inside it.
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
And to sum up this thread :) and a note to all you young whippersnappers, may you be blessed by your energy and idealism: If you are good, learn some things, and don't do anything exceptionally stupid, you may one day be "that old coot". :)
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Shhhhhh..... :-D And who the $%%$%$ gets 10x salaried? That's just nonsense.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Dunno, I've heard of highly paid consultants getting several hundred/hour. As much as I like the stability of a permanent job and not having to do any of that icky sales and marketing for myself if I knew where I could get that kind of money I'd probably be doing it myself. At least for the year or three it'd take me to earn enough to buy a house with cash.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Sounds like the contract I just got out of. They treated new people like they were stupid but yet when looking at performance over the past year plus the quality of the software has been slowly going down and customers getting more issues with every release. She should run... far far away. Some people don't want to change or especially hear about change from the new person on the totem pole.
Jeremy Falcon
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By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess. If I hear the word 'Access' in an interview, I'm out of there as quickly as I can.I make mistakes only twice: For the first and the last time.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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Tell her we all said, "Welcome to the real world." She needs to just observe and learn the culture for a while before telling the existing employees that they are doing everything "wrong". I still have to delve into Delphi 6 (circa 2000) code that uses Paradox as the database for crying out loud.
Yeah, that to point I agree. Devs tend to always come off as treating people like they are stupid. So maybe it was the way she did it. Who knows, we weren't there. But you have a good point.
Jeremy Falcon
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S Houghtelin wrote:
Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000
You can't fix stupid. Access sucks in so many ways...
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
