Random Comment of the Day
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CodeWraith wrote:
die hard VBA fans
Who said anything about VBA?..or did I miss something? :confused:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
kmoorevs wrote:
Who said anything about VBA?..or did I miss something?
I believe CodeWraith was alluding to the fact that many people who use Access use it because they can use VBA to manipulate it and then they think VBA is the best programming language ever and the associated issues with that. As a matter of fact, why would anyone use Access if they don't use VBA? Well, I guess maybe because it's part of MS-Office.
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Tell her we all said, "Welcome to the real world." She needs to just observe and learn the culture for a while before telling the existing employees that they are doing everything "wrong". I still have to delve into Delphi 6 (circa 2000) code that uses Paradox as the database for crying out loud.
MarkTJohnson wrote:
She needs to just observe and learn the culture for a while before telling the existing employees that they are doing everything "wrong".
My reaction as well. Your second day is not the one to argue with the coxswain over the type of oars. Just get in the damned boat and row!
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Oh jeeze, talk about throwing the old guy under the bus with 3rd hand comments. We could spin this another way - his wife may be dying of cancer, he was told by HR to train his replacement, and she's just a *itch. I'm sure she's a nice person, I hope his wife is well, and he has a good job, but to start re-writing stuff on her second day there? Maybe time for a little coaching.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
charlieg wrote:
but to start re-writing stuff on her second day there?
If one is not engaged exactly to do that, that's the best way to not pass the training time.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
Alright, just trying to find an analogy here. Let's say a new hire is assigned to add a new form to a php web site. While being introduced to the web site code, the new hire explains how stupid PHP is and the web site should be rewritten using Java Spring MVC hosted on a Web Sphere application server and provides examples from an tutorial googled during the session. That is how I see it, am I doing it wrong?
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CodeWraith wrote:
die hard VBA fans
Who said anything about VBA?..or did I miss something? :confused:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
Access leads to VBA, VBA leads to bad code, bad code leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate ... to suffering and the Dark Side. Ask any Jedi.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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Oh jeeze, talk about throwing the old guy under the bus with 3rd hand comments. We could spin this another way - his wife may be dying of cancer, he was told by HR to train his replacement, and she's just a *itch. I'm sure she's a nice person, I hope his wife is well, and he has a good job, but to start re-writing stuff on her second day there? Maybe time for a little coaching.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Yeah, right, the moron excuse is to always blame the woman. :thumbsdown:
I'd rather be phishing!
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Yeah, right, the moron excuse is to always blame the woman. :thumbsdown:
I'd rather be phishing!
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Alright, just trying to find an analogy here. Let's say a new hire is assigned to add a new form to a php web site. While being introduced to the web site code, the new hire explains how stupid PHP is and the web site should be rewritten using Java Spring MVC hosted on a Web Sphere application server and provides examples from an tutorial googled during the session. That is how I see it, am I doing it wrong?
On your second day? Yep, you are doing it wrong. That is NOT the way to get ahead. You have to earn some trust and respect before you go trying to change the world and you shouldn't use the word stupid. This is the voice of experience speaking. I had to go to sensitivity training because I called something stupid, even though it was contrary to the goals of my project and company, and it was being pushed for by a consultant.
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My friend just started a new job a few days ago, she said the first day was OK, the usual employee orientation stuff. But then they put some crabby old guy in charge of training her on the database maintenance. Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000, so she tried telling them they could migrate over to Mongo or Apache database, something more secure but the guy bit her head off. So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables but he just won’t listen and just spouts off random nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
S Houghtelin wrote:
So she tried showing him some examples of how much easier it would be to maintain and update the tables
Did she also demonstrate how much the migration would cost, how much the QA would cost, and as applicable how much it would cost to redo all of the other code that accessed the database and QA for that as well? And what about the retraining costs?
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By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess. If I hear the word 'Access' in an interview, I'm out of there as quickly as I can.I make mistakes only twice: For the first and the last time.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
CodeWraith wrote:
By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess.
Hmmm...I have worked in C, C++, Java, C#, Perl and SQL for decades. Certainly those that I have talked to suggest that JavaScript is similar. And nothing suggests that any of those are chaos free. So exactly which technology is chaos free?
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On your second day? Yep, you are doing it wrong. That is NOT the way to get ahead. You have to earn some trust and respect before you go trying to change the world and you shouldn't use the word stupid. This is the voice of experience speaking. I had to go to sensitivity training because I called something stupid, even though it was contrary to the goals of my project and company, and it was being pushed for by a consultant.
When I hear about sensitivity training, I always picture [something like this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3\_iPskjxk) :laugh:
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Old misogynistic bugger feeling intellectually and professionally challenged by a younger (I assume) women starts bullying her. She should report him to her manager (and/or HR); if they do not get involve, she should start looking for a better job.
I'd rather be phishing!
Maximilien wrote:
Old misogynistic bugger feeling intellectually and professionally challenged by a younger (I assume) women starts bullying her.
Description says that she was in a training class. Not an architecture meeting tasked with mapping out the future of the company. And given it was a training class for MS Access I can only wonder what the intent of instructor and student was. As a student, I wouldn't suppose that myself I would actually need training on MS Access. It would be nice to be introduced to the layout but I most definitely would not be challenging the structure on the first day. And I have been working with databases for more than 30 years. Conversely as an instructor either the students are expected to have no knowledge or they are experienced professionals. With no knowledge then they should do nothing but learn. As experienced professionals they should already understand the nature of legacy applications and the intent of an introductory session. Neither of those types of students should be challenging the architecture.
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I'm sure the general consensus here will be that Access is evil and should be avoided at all costs. I'll go against the grain here and just say that Access is simply another RDBMS that works perfectly well for small single user applications. It may be old tech, but it works. :) edit: I'm referring mostly to using Access as a database only, not for creating applications...I hate VBA as much as the rest of you! :laugh:
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I can't disagree much. You don't show up at a new job and immediately start telling people they should redo everything using something you prefer, no matter what the pros and cons might be.
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since when do employers really listen to their employees, particularly a newbie vs. some old coot that's been there way too long (and worse still may be a friend of the boss / director.) wait a while till the boss knows you're both human doing OK at your job, once that traction achieved suggest they need to review/upgrade before their tech doesn't fit the real word (interface etc.) Suggest they retain consultants to do a full review because they are at risk of loosing a lot of business if they don't upgrade to match their supply/sales chains. sometimes they really do have to pay to accept the truth, whereas if it's just you saying it even 10 years on the old coot's still always going to have the upper hand. (unless sleeping with the boss - but no, don't do that: it never ends well.)
Format Success. Welcome to your new signa&*(gD@@@:beer:@@@@@@*@x@@
Lopatir wrote:
Suggest they retain consultants to do a full review because they are at risk of loosing a lot of business if they don't upgrade to match their supply/sales chains.
Excluding those where the the sale involved a product and the customer wanted a specific database, I have never seen any customer care what database the company was using.
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Alright, just trying to find an analogy here. Let's say a new hire is assigned to add a new form to a php web site. While being introduced to the web site code, the new hire explains how stupid PHP is and the web site should be rewritten using Java Spring MVC hosted on a Web Sphere application server and provides examples from an tutorial googled during the session. That is how I see it, am I doing it wrong?
Termi Nater wrote:
That is how I see it, am I doing it wrong?
Yes. Where in your statement are you taking into account the large cost of doing that? Companies do not get paid in technology. They get paid in money. If it costs then it subtracts from income. So where does your solution add to the income of the company?
Termi Nater wrote:
While being introduced to the web site code, the new hire explains how stupid PHP
And I should note also that I have not seen any evidence that currently PHP is choice that will make a company suffer. PHP has been around for a while and is still maintaining its market share. Note that doesn't mean it cannot be implemented badly but that is true for any technology. And just to be clear I don't do PHP.
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CodeWraith wrote:
By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess.
Hmmm...I have worked in C, C++, Java, C#, Perl and SQL for decades. Certainly those that I have talked to suggest that JavaScript is similar. And nothing suggests that any of those are chaos free. So exactly which technology is chaos free?
You don't have to give me reasons to think that JavaScript is junk. :-) Still, the language is only a secondary problem. It's the culture of merrily hacking away without a plan or architecture and the myth that this is the one and only way to tackle everything. And when the day comes that the junk collapses under its own weight, then it's somehow your fault for pointing it out. I honestly don't like to be called an idiot by people who never learned as much as I already have forgotten. Call me a snob, but I don't work in a place with such a culture. I know how it ends and having had the dubious pleasure once is enough.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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Yeah, right, the moron excuse is to always blame the woman. :thumbsdown:
I'd rather be phishing!
He is not blaming the woman, he is blaming the person that in the first day at work says the one in charge of the training "that's a crappy old fashioned thing and I can do better". If a man had done it, my answer would have been exactly the same. If you are not hired to do exactly that, then shut the fuck up at least until you are in for some months
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Maximilien wrote:
Old misogynistic bugger feeling intellectually and professionally challenged by a younger (I assume) women starts bullying her.
Description says that she was in a training class. Not an architecture meeting tasked with mapping out the future of the company. And given it was a training class for MS Access I can only wonder what the intent of instructor and student was. As a student, I wouldn't suppose that myself I would actually need training on MS Access. It would be nice to be introduced to the layout but I most definitely would not be challenging the structure on the first day. And I have been working with databases for more than 30 years. Conversely as an instructor either the students are expected to have no knowledge or they are experienced professionals. With no knowledge then they should do nothing but learn. As experienced professionals they should already understand the nature of legacy applications and the intent of an introductory session. Neither of those types of students should be challenging the architecture.
jschell wrote:
With no knowledge then they should do nothing but learn. As experienced professionals they should already understand the nature of legacy applications and the intent of an introductory session. Neither of those types of students should be challenging the architecture.
:thumbsup::thumbsup: At least not until you are in enough time to understand the legacies, frames, history and have already built a name in the company. I have re-built things a couple of times in projects that were going bad and ended faster than trying to fix the previous mess.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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dandy72 wrote:
You don't show up at a new job and immediately start telling people they should redo everything using something you prefer, no matter what the pros and cons might be.
To be fair those that are ignorant and inexperienced might do that.