Climate Change is global socialism, admits the UN
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And yet, during this period of evil, foul, grasping and careless capitalism we have had over the last century we have: 1) Salmon swimming in the Thames again 2) Otters swimming in rivers again all over Britain 3) Environmental controls on pollution 4) Saved many species from going extinct, and trying to save many more 5) Banned lead in petrol 6) Banned CFCs 7) Got rid of a lot of aerosol pollution 8) and on and on and on And why? Because capitalism has given us the wealth to be able to do this. So lets ban single use plastics, lets really tidy up. Unless of course your interest isn't really in then environment, and you are just using it to further your political views?
We have saved but a handful of species, and most of those we have saved we have only done so by preserving a pitiful few in zoos. Meanwhile, thousands more have become extinct. Never heard of the Sixth Mass Extinction[^]? (Of course you have - no doubt you have your conspiracy theory that it's all politically driven to fall back on.) I could go "and on and on and on" too - I'd say the backward steps outpace the forward ones by some distance, esp as the forward ones were mistakes in the first place.
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Unless of course your interest isn't really in then environment, and you are just using it to further your political views?
Now there's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. If anyone has a political agenda here, it's you and your ilk.
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We have saved but a handful of species, and most of those we have saved we have only done so by preserving a pitiful few in zoos. Meanwhile, thousands more have become extinct. Never heard of the Sixth Mass Extinction[^]? (Of course you have - no doubt you have your conspiracy theory that it's all politically driven to fall back on.) I could go "and on and on and on" too - I'd say the backward steps outpace the forward ones by some distance, esp as the forward ones were mistakes in the first place.
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Unless of course your interest isn't really in then environment, and you are just using it to further your political views?
Now there's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. If anyone has a political agenda here, it's you and your ilk.
A_Griffin wrote:
thousands more have become extinct
Name 2,000 then.
A_Griffin wrote:
If anyone has a political agenda here, it's you and your ilk.
And now we see the polarisation and judgemental nature of CAGWists. My concern is for the truth, and abuse of science. Yet you ASSUME I am some kind of right wing type. Racist, homophobic, wants women to stay at home. According to you that is me isnt it? It is a pitiful debate really when people have to act like this.
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A_Griffin wrote:
thousands more have become extinct
Name 2,000 then.
A_Griffin wrote:
If anyone has a political agenda here, it's you and your ilk.
And now we see the polarisation and judgemental nature of CAGWists. My concern is for the truth, and abuse of science. Yet you ASSUME I am some kind of right wing type. Racist, homophobic, wants women to stay at home. According to you that is me isnt it? It is a pitiful debate really when people have to act like this.
Excuse me? You're the one that brought up the issue of political motivations, and listed a defence of capitalism based on all the wonderful things it has achieved. And then you have the nerve to call me out for responding? Screw you. And you accuse me of being presumptive about you while you seem to be assuming I'm out to destroy capitalism because I highlight it's failings.
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A_Griffin wrote:
thousands more have become extinct
Name 2,000 then.
A_Griffin wrote:
If anyone has a political agenda here, it's you and your ilk.
And now we see the polarisation and judgemental nature of CAGWists. My concern is for the truth, and abuse of science. Yet you ASSUME I am some kind of right wing type. Racist, homophobic, wants women to stay at home. According to you that is me isnt it? It is a pitiful debate really when people have to act like this.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Yet you ASSUME I am some kind of right wing type. Racist, homophobic, wants women to stay at home.
You missed Islamophobic. Oh, wait ... :laugh:
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Of course one must first start from the fact that CFact is a denier site funded by businesses whose interests are specifically impacted by laws about the climate. So I did a basic minimal search to attempt to validate the first quote "Ottmar Edenhofer" from some site that wasn't a denier site. I couldn't find one. I didn't bother looking for the second. If someone can find such a reference I would like to read it. I would like to see the actual context even providing such a quote exists.
jschell wrote:
Of course one must first start from the fact that CFact is a denier site
Following given link (I wore gloves, no worry), I ended up on an article explaining that the solution to species extinction is to privatize them... Given example was privatizing elephants so that hunting economy would sustain their preservation costs. I now use to act with lobbyists just as with trolls: I don't feed them ;)
selfish adj. Defines someone who does not think of me.
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Excuse me? You're the one that brought up the issue of political motivations, and listed a defence of capitalism based on all the wonderful things it has achieved. And then you have the nerve to call me out for responding? Screw you. And you accuse me of being presumptive about you while you seem to be assuming I'm out to destroy capitalism because I highlight it's failings.
I asked you if you were politically motivated, you said 'me and my ilk' are following an agenda. Can you spot the difference. Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century? And if you dont think capitalism has given us immense wealth, then to what do you attribute the fact that we, today, live like kings of centuries ago?
A_Griffin wrote:
Screw you
Sad when a debate has to go this way.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
Yet you ASSUME I am some kind of right wing type. Racist, homophobic, wants women to stay at home.
You missed Islamophobic. Oh, wait ... :laugh:
Indeed, I am, because muslims ARE homophobic and want women to stay at home. :)
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I asked you if you were politically motivated, you said 'me and my ilk' are following an agenda. Can you spot the difference. Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century? And if you dont think capitalism has given us immense wealth, then to what do you attribute the fact that we, today, live like kings of centuries ago?
A_Griffin wrote:
Screw you
Sad when a debate has to go this way.
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Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century?
SO I was being hyperbolic – so sue me. Nevertheless, if you read the paper the figures are pretty scary about what’s going on.
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And if you dont think capitalism has given us immense wealth, then to what do you attribute the fact that we, today, live like kings of centuries ago?
I never said capitalism hasn’t given us great wealth. (For someone that’s so keen on seeing others justify what they say, you can be awfully lax about your own statements at times.) On the contrary – but that is also the root of its problems: that it has given us this wealth at the expense of any concern for anything else. Wealth creation has been its sole aim and raison d’etre. Companies’ sole aims have been to maximise their bottom line profits in order, in the case of public ones, to maximise the return to shareholders. This needs to change. I am not anti-capitalism per se but it needs to engage in more than simple wealth creation for its own sake. It has bought our current wealth against our children’s future, and they will not be thanking us for it in the decades to come.
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Sad when a debate has to go this way.
Maybe, but as Prof Gerardo Ceballos, at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, who led the work on the paper I linked to, said:
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The situation has become so bad it would not be ethical not to use strong language.
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Indeed, I am, because muslims ARE homophobic and want women to stay at home. :)
All muslims or are you just generalising?
This space for rent
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All muslims or are you just generalising?
This space for rent
Put it this way, as Churchil said, the passive majority will never control a fervent minority. The muslim council of Britain asked Blair if they could implement Sharia law in the UK. So the answer is 'all of them', since those who don't are not in control.
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Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century?
SO I was being hyperbolic – so sue me. Nevertheless, if you read the paper the figures are pretty scary about what’s going on.
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And if you dont think capitalism has given us immense wealth, then to what do you attribute the fact that we, today, live like kings of centuries ago?
I never said capitalism hasn’t given us great wealth. (For someone that’s so keen on seeing others justify what they say, you can be awfully lax about your own statements at times.) On the contrary – but that is also the root of its problems: that it has given us this wealth at the expense of any concern for anything else. Wealth creation has been its sole aim and raison d’etre. Companies’ sole aims have been to maximise their bottom line profits in order, in the case of public ones, to maximise the return to shareholders. This needs to change. I am not anti-capitalism per se but it needs to engage in more than simple wealth creation for its own sake. It has bought our current wealth against our children’s future, and they will not be thanking us for it in the decades to come.
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Sad when a debate has to go this way.
Maybe, but as Prof Gerardo Ceballos, at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, who led the work on the paper I linked to, said:
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The situation has become so bad it would not be ethical not to use strong language.
A_Griffin wrote:
I was being hyperbolic
A bit y = x^2 eh? :)
A_Griffin wrote:
the figures are pretty scary about what’s going on
No they aren't. We have lost 90% of all species known. We will lose more. Mankind, in the nasty advanced capitalistic west, is actually trying to preserve endangered species.
A_Griffin wrote:
it has given us this wealth at the expense of any concern for anything else.
We certainly WERE like that. Today we aren't. because we have environmental laws. We need more. For plastics particularly. Capitalism can of course lead to abuse. Any system can. That is why we have law, and democracy to create it, so we can control that abuse. Shame to throw the baby out with the bath water eh? Capitalism has done us much good. Let us deal with the bad it has also given us and not destroy it entirely. Dont you agree?
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A_Griffin wrote:
I was being hyperbolic
A bit y = x^2 eh? :)
A_Griffin wrote:
the figures are pretty scary about what’s going on
No they aren't. We have lost 90% of all species known. We will lose more. Mankind, in the nasty advanced capitalistic west, is actually trying to preserve endangered species.
A_Griffin wrote:
it has given us this wealth at the expense of any concern for anything else.
We certainly WERE like that. Today we aren't. because we have environmental laws. We need more. For plastics particularly. Capitalism can of course lead to abuse. Any system can. That is why we have law, and democracy to create it, so we can control that abuse. Shame to throw the baby out with the bath water eh? Capitalism has done us much good. Let us deal with the bad it has also given us and not destroy it entirely. Dont you agree?
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Dont you agree?
I already told you: I am not anti-capitalist per se. But I disagree that we're (it's) dong anything like enough to deal with the problems facing the world. Capitalism, and the political structures built upon it, need to adapt far more to take into account the needs of the environment, and to have a more humane face generally. If it doesn't, it will be torn down completely, and baby, mummy, daddy and the rubber duck too will go down the drain along with the bath water.
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Dont you agree?
I already told you: I am not anti-capitalist per se. But I disagree that we're (it's) dong anything like enough to deal with the problems facing the world. Capitalism, and the political structures built upon it, need to adapt far more to take into account the needs of the environment, and to have a more humane face generally. If it doesn't, it will be torn down completely, and baby, mummy, daddy and the rubber duck too will go down the drain along with the bath water.
I agree. But let us enact environmental laws based on real evidence. Plastics, electronic recycling, these and probably many other areas need, right now, much tighter laws. We KNOW they are causing damage. CO2 on the other hand is known, right now, to be a big benefit to the planet. It is 20% greener since only the 1980s. Since 1900 it is probably 30% greener. This is NASA leaf index data by the way, it is reliable and solid evidence based on very well known biology. IF Co2 causes large warming (it needs water vapour +ve feedback to achieve this) then it MIGHT be dangerous; it is NOT proved that a more then 2C air temperature rise is even dangerous. And since we don't see an increase in water vapour (NASA NVAP data [^] then CO2 will only give us 1C increase when doubled to 540 ppm. And that is not only safe, it is a benefit to the planet. That is the science of AGW, and those are the facts.
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I agree. But let us enact environmental laws based on real evidence. Plastics, electronic recycling, these and probably many other areas need, right now, much tighter laws. We KNOW they are causing damage. CO2 on the other hand is known, right now, to be a big benefit to the planet. It is 20% greener since only the 1980s. Since 1900 it is probably 30% greener. This is NASA leaf index data by the way, it is reliable and solid evidence based on very well known biology. IF Co2 causes large warming (it needs water vapour +ve feedback to achieve this) then it MIGHT be dangerous; it is NOT proved that a more then 2C air temperature rise is even dangerous. And since we don't see an increase in water vapour (NASA NVAP data [^] then CO2 will only give us 1C increase when doubled to 540 ppm. And that is not only safe, it is a benefit to the planet. That is the science of AGW, and those are the facts.
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That is the science of AGW, and those are the facts.
Just pointing to the amount of greenery proves nothing. A hothouse may be full of greenery, but it'd hard to live in it for long. Meanwhile most scientists agree that the rising CO2 level is a major contributor to the rising global average temperature, and the knock-on effects from that, should it rise not much more, are potentially quite devastating.
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I would like to see those quotes in context. The point being that in order to achieve a sustainable environmental policy then the current capitalist model that has run the global economy will have to change - somehow - because it is the power driving the current unsustainable and environmentally unfriendly policies being practiced today. You are the one who has thrown the word "socialism" in - I don't see it in the quotes you link to.
Redistribution of wealth IS socialism.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
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That is the science of AGW, and those are the facts.
Just pointing to the amount of greenery proves nothing. A hothouse may be full of greenery, but it'd hard to live in it for long. Meanwhile most scientists agree that the rising CO2 level is a major contributor to the rising global average temperature, and the knock-on effects from that, should it rise not much more, are potentially quite devastating.
A_Griffin wrote:
ust pointing to the amount of greenery proves nothing
So yo totally missed the part abotu water vapour feedbacks and its absence in reality? Sigh. Why? That IS the point. That is the single key crucial critical issue. Why are you ignoring it?
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I asked you if you were politically motivated, you said 'me and my ilk' are following an agenda. Can you spot the difference. Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century? And if you dont think capitalism has given us immense wealth, then to what do you attribute the fact that we, today, live like kings of centuries ago?
A_Griffin wrote:
Screw you
Sad when a debate has to go this way.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century?
Easy google search, first result: UN Environment Programme: 200 Species Extinct Every Day, Unlike Anything Since Dinosaurs Disappeared 65 Million Years Ago | HuffPost[^]
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
Now, where are those 2,000 species extinct in the last century?
Easy google search, first result: UN Environment Programme: 200 Species Extinct Every Day, Unlike Anything Since Dinosaurs Disappeared 65 Million Years Ago | HuffPost[^]
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
A link to a guardian article? Name the species. Name 2000 species. Find actual evidence instead of some story in a paper.
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A link to a guardian article? Name the species. Name 2000 species. Find actual evidence instead of some story in a paper.
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No? Can't find a link to the actual, apparently, UN statement? Eh?
