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  3. That Linux praise?...I take at least part of it back.

That Linux praise?...I take at least part of it back.

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  • M Marc Clifton

    dandy72 wrote:

    Linux...you're so close, yet still so far from actually being usable.

    Exactly. The thing that drives me nuts about Linux is that to get something working, I have to spend more time figuring out the right sudo command, the right package to install because the command is missing, the right compiler to install because the package doesn't have the right binary distro for the version of the OS, the right dependencies to install because the package source gets the latest which has some API changes with the package source as it was last "maintained", and if I'm lucky enough to build it, basically start back at square one with googling and taking random shots in a dark black hole to figure out the right esoteric (you need to be Rudolf Steiner so you can ask the dead for help) OS configuration file/command/parameter/parameter switches to set up, at which point I've forgotten about the problem I was trying to solve and just go back to my nice W10 (did I say that) and C# projects.

    Latest Article - Class-less Coding - Minimalist C# and Why F# and Function Programming Has Some Advantages Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802

    D Offline
    D Offline
    dandy72
    wrote on last edited by
    #11

    How depressingly true. Even when, for example, people have exhaustive notes in a blog somewhere to get something going...at least half of it is no longer going to be applicable a few versions down the road.

    M 1 Reply Last reply
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    • D dandy72

      It hasn't been 3 fulls weeks since I've posted a message [here in the lounge](https://www.codeproject.com/Messages/5456424/Something-we-dont-read-a-lot-of-around-here-some-L.aspx) praising the current state of Linux. The short version of that post is that I have an old machine dedicated for watching media hooked up to a projector, and it's been sluggish with Windows 10, which had also been giving me trouble with updates, so I installed Lubuntu on it (a lightweight version of Ubuntu) and it's performing a lot better--at least in terms of always remaining responsive. Everything "just worked" and the machine served its (single) purpose again beautifully. Cue to today. Now that I've had a few weeks of "real use" out of it, the review isn't so glowing anymore. a) Video drivers. Even though the machine is old, it played back 1080p video just fine, so long as I had Nvidia's ION driver installed, which is trivial to install on Windows. Nvidia has a version for Linux, but it looks like it's a few kernel versions behind, so it doesn't install on the current Lubuntu (17.10). I'm no Linux kernel developer, which you apparently have to be in order to figure out how to get things working in this sort of situation. I had to give up on that, which is pretty much a showstopper as, without hardware acceleration, 1080p video stutters all over the place and is basically unwatchable. 720p, with just the basic video driver, "works", but it's definitely glitchy here and there. b) LAN connections. Again, I'm no Linux expert, but I do know enough so that using "smb://machinename" in the file browser was all that was needed to access shares on other machines on my LAN. It worked well for about a week. Then it simply refused to access anything from the machine hosting my media files (some generic timeout error, even though it's clearly not spending any time waiting for a response, as the error is immediate). However, other machines on my LAN remained accessible to it. The consistent fix was to reboot the machine hosting my media files, even though other (Windows) machines could read everything with no issue. *That* machine is also hosting other files that are needed elsewhere, and rebooting all the time is going to upset some processes, so that's not a long-term solution. c) The straw that broke the camel's back: One day the machine booted at 640x480 only, and refused to go back to whatever native resolution my projector is using (it's not a monitor+projector configuration - *only* the projector is hooked up to it)

      N Offline
      N Offline
      Nelek
      wrote on last edited by
      #12

      Why don't you just install windows 7? If home cinema is all the use you do to that machine, you should have no problems if you don't get more updates.

      M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • D dandy72

        The problem with 7 nowadays is that there's hundreds of updates waiting to be downloaded and installed even if you clean-install from the latest ISO you can get from Microsoft. Based on my own observations of doing clean installs of Windows 7 nowadays, there's a 50-50 chance you can't just start the update process and walk away for a few hours--something will be broken. Being lucky means being able to restart the update process a few times and it'll manage to complete cleanly.

        N Offline
        N Offline
        Nelek
        wrote on last edited by
        #13

        Win 7 and hirens' boot CD Install, update, image... new updates come? restore image, delta update, image.

        M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

        L M 2 Replies Last reply
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        • N Nelek

          Win 7 and hirens' boot CD Install, update, image... new updates come? restore image, delta update, image.

          M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

          L Offline
          L Offline
          Lost User
          wrote on last edited by
          #14

          Win 7 and hirens' boot CD and turn off windows updates because nothing actually necessary or important has come out since the latest ISO.

          Signature ready for installation. Please Reboot now.

          M 1 Reply Last reply
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          • D dandy72

            It hasn't been 3 fulls weeks since I've posted a message [here in the lounge](https://www.codeproject.com/Messages/5456424/Something-we-dont-read-a-lot-of-around-here-some-L.aspx) praising the current state of Linux. The short version of that post is that I have an old machine dedicated for watching media hooked up to a projector, and it's been sluggish with Windows 10, which had also been giving me trouble with updates, so I installed Lubuntu on it (a lightweight version of Ubuntu) and it's performing a lot better--at least in terms of always remaining responsive. Everything "just worked" and the machine served its (single) purpose again beautifully. Cue to today. Now that I've had a few weeks of "real use" out of it, the review isn't so glowing anymore. a) Video drivers. Even though the machine is old, it played back 1080p video just fine, so long as I had Nvidia's ION driver installed, which is trivial to install on Windows. Nvidia has a version for Linux, but it looks like it's a few kernel versions behind, so it doesn't install on the current Lubuntu (17.10). I'm no Linux kernel developer, which you apparently have to be in order to figure out how to get things working in this sort of situation. I had to give up on that, which is pretty much a showstopper as, without hardware acceleration, 1080p video stutters all over the place and is basically unwatchable. 720p, with just the basic video driver, "works", but it's definitely glitchy here and there. b) LAN connections. Again, I'm no Linux expert, but I do know enough so that using "smb://machinename" in the file browser was all that was needed to access shares on other machines on my LAN. It worked well for about a week. Then it simply refused to access anything from the machine hosting my media files (some generic timeout error, even though it's clearly not spending any time waiting for a response, as the error is immediate). However, other machines on my LAN remained accessible to it. The consistent fix was to reboot the machine hosting my media files, even though other (Windows) machines could read everything with no issue. *That* machine is also hosting other files that are needed elsewhere, and rebooting all the time is going to upset some processes, so that's not a long-term solution. c) The straw that broke the camel's back: One day the machine booted at 640x480 only, and refused to go back to whatever native resolution my projector is using (it's not a monitor+projector configuration - *only* the projector is hooked up to it)

            G Offline
            G Offline
            George Swan
            wrote on last edited by
            #15

            Could I please make a few representations for the defence? It's not surprising that a PC built to run Windows does not run Linux as efficiently. Also, it takes two to network, if Linux doesn't network well with Windows it's equally true that Windows does not network well with Linux. As for the final statement, 'Linux...you're so close, yet still so far from actually being usable.' How can you explain that, according to Wikipedia, 'Linux has the largest installed base of all general-purpose operating systems. Linux is also the leading operating system on servers and other big iron systems such as mainframe computers'?

            M D 2 Replies Last reply
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            • D dandy72

              It hasn't been 3 fulls weeks since I've posted a message [here in the lounge](https://www.codeproject.com/Messages/5456424/Something-we-dont-read-a-lot-of-around-here-some-L.aspx) praising the current state of Linux. The short version of that post is that I have an old machine dedicated for watching media hooked up to a projector, and it's been sluggish with Windows 10, which had also been giving me trouble with updates, so I installed Lubuntu on it (a lightweight version of Ubuntu) and it's performing a lot better--at least in terms of always remaining responsive. Everything "just worked" and the machine served its (single) purpose again beautifully. Cue to today. Now that I've had a few weeks of "real use" out of it, the review isn't so glowing anymore. a) Video drivers. Even though the machine is old, it played back 1080p video just fine, so long as I had Nvidia's ION driver installed, which is trivial to install on Windows. Nvidia has a version for Linux, but it looks like it's a few kernel versions behind, so it doesn't install on the current Lubuntu (17.10). I'm no Linux kernel developer, which you apparently have to be in order to figure out how to get things working in this sort of situation. I had to give up on that, which is pretty much a showstopper as, without hardware acceleration, 1080p video stutters all over the place and is basically unwatchable. 720p, with just the basic video driver, "works", but it's definitely glitchy here and there. b) LAN connections. Again, I'm no Linux expert, but I do know enough so that using "smb://machinename" in the file browser was all that was needed to access shares on other machines on my LAN. It worked well for about a week. Then it simply refused to access anything from the machine hosting my media files (some generic timeout error, even though it's clearly not spending any time waiting for a response, as the error is immediate). However, other machines on my LAN remained accessible to it. The consistent fix was to reboot the machine hosting my media files, even though other (Windows) machines could read everything with no issue. *That* machine is also hosting other files that are needed elsewhere, and rebooting all the time is going to upset some processes, so that's not a long-term solution. c) The straw that broke the camel's back: One day the machine booted at 640x480 only, and refused to go back to whatever native resolution my projector is using (it's not a monitor+projector configuration - *only* the projector is hooked up to it)

              M Offline
              M Offline
              Munchies_Matt
              wrote on last edited by
              #16

              Yep, it is close, but just fails at the final hurdle. I am having issues with 17.10 and nvidia drivers, (massively high) resolutions, blank screens. Perhaps go back to an older Ubuntu with the unity shell?

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              • D dandy72

                The problem with 7 nowadays is that there's hundreds of updates waiting to be downloaded and installed even if you clean-install from the latest ISO you can get from Microsoft. Based on my own observations of doing clean installs of Windows 7 nowadays, there's a 50-50 chance you can't just start the update process and walk away for a few hours--something will be broken. Being lucky means being able to restart the update process a few times and it'll manage to complete cleanly.

                M Offline
                M Offline
                Munchies_Matt
                wrote on last edited by
                #17

                Turn off updates, thats what I do, and win7 is my principle OS.

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • L Lost User

                  Win 7 and hirens' boot CD and turn off windows updates because nothing actually necessary or important has come out since the latest ISO.

                  Signature ready for installation. Please Reboot now.

                  M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Munchies_Matt
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #18

                  Nothing you NEED has come out since the iso. :)

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • N Nelek

                    Win 7 and hirens' boot CD Install, update, image... new updates come? restore image, delta update, image.

                    M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

                    M Offline
                    M Offline
                    Munchies_Matt
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #19

                    Good CD, very good actually, but I prefer Macrium. Or you can just turn off updates...

                    N 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • D dandy72

                      How depressingly true. Even when, for example, people have exhaustive notes in a blog somewhere to get something going...at least half of it is no longer going to be applicable a few versions down the road.

                      M Offline
                      M Offline
                      Munchies_Matt
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #20

                      Ain't that the truth! Even the blogs that list the build process for the kernel over 3 or 4 versions finally give up.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • G George Swan

                        Could I please make a few representations for the defence? It's not surprising that a PC built to run Windows does not run Linux as efficiently. Also, it takes two to network, if Linux doesn't network well with Windows it's equally true that Windows does not network well with Linux. As for the final statement, 'Linux...you're so close, yet still so far from actually being usable.' How can you explain that, according to Wikipedia, 'Linux has the largest installed base of all general-purpose operating systems. Linux is also the leading operating system on servers and other big iron systems such as mainframe computers'?

                        M Offline
                        M Offline
                        Munchies_Matt
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #21

                        George Swan wrote:

                        a PC built to run Windows

                        In what way? It is juts an instruction set, how it is used is up to the software vendor.

                        G 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • M Munchies_Matt

                          George Swan wrote:

                          a PC built to run Windows

                          In what way? It is juts an instruction set, how it is used is up to the software vendor.

                          G Offline
                          G Offline
                          George Swan
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #22

                          The problem is not with the CPU, it's the lack of driver support for the bungled hardware. See this piece regarding Nvidia.

                          M D 2 Replies Last reply
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                          • G George Swan

                            The problem is not with the CPU, it's the lack of driver support for the bungled hardware. See this piece regarding Nvidia.

                            M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Munchies_Matt
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #23

                            Right, that is something different then. Of course in the linux world anyone ca write a driver for an Nvidia card, if they have access to the register documentation. I have put 17.10 on a laptop with Nvidia, it has been a bit of a faff, but it works.

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • M Munchies_Matt

                              Yep, it is close, but just fails at the final hurdle. I am having issues with 17.10 and nvidia drivers, (massively high) resolutions, blank screens. Perhaps go back to an older Ubuntu with the unity shell?

                              G Offline
                              G Offline
                              George Swan
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #24

                              I would try Linux Mint before giving up.

                              M 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • G George Swan

                                I would try Linux Mint before giving up.

                                M Offline
                                M Offline
                                Munchies_Matt
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #25

                                No plans to give up! Not that I intend to use it, I just need to get a kernel with some extra tracing/step through running so I can see why my USB device isnt working properly on linux.

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • M Munchies_Matt

                                  Good CD, very good actually, but I prefer Macrium. Or you can just turn off updates...

                                  N Offline
                                  N Offline
                                  Nelek
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #26

                                  For the Win10 Laptop I have changed to Macrium too... Hiren's was not working anymore and I needed a substitute. Pity :sigh: I tested the one that OG recommends, the software was nice, but the boot CD sucked. Macrium is a bit more complicated, but the Boot CD worked fine for me.

                                  M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • G George Swan

                                    Could I please make a few representations for the defence? It's not surprising that a PC built to run Windows does not run Linux as efficiently. Also, it takes two to network, if Linux doesn't network well with Windows it's equally true that Windows does not network well with Linux. As for the final statement, 'Linux...you're so close, yet still so far from actually being usable.' How can you explain that, according to Wikipedia, 'Linux has the largest installed base of all general-purpose operating systems. Linux is also the leading operating system on servers and other big iron systems such as mainframe computers'?

                                    D Offline
                                    D Offline
                                    dandy72
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #27

                                    George Swan wrote:

                                    How can you explain that, according to Wikipedia,

                                    Easily.

                                    George Swan wrote:

                                    'Linux has the largest installed base of all general-purpose operating systems.

                                    These days they include Android phones in the count when you hear that statement

                                    George Swan wrote:

                                    Linux is also the leading operating system on servers and other big iron systems such as mainframe computers'?

                                    Notice how they leave out desktops...which is the sort of environment I'm trying to use it in and where it's failing.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • M Munchies_Matt

                                      Yep, it is close, but just fails at the final hurdle. I am having issues with 17.10 and nvidia drivers, (massively high) resolutions, blank screens. Perhaps go back to an older Ubuntu with the unity shell?

                                      D Offline
                                      D Offline
                                      dandy72
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #28

                                      Munchies_Matt wrote:

                                      Perhaps go back to an older Ubuntu with the unity shell?

                                      I've been thinking about that. Perhaps something that was current at the time the latest Linux drivers for my video chipset came out. Maybe I'll do that if the system (now back on Windows 10) starts running into errors installing updates again... It's important though in this case that I use something lightweight. Unity is all but that.

                                      M 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • D dandy72

                                        Munchies_Matt wrote:

                                        Perhaps go back to an older Ubuntu with the unity shell?

                                        I've been thinking about that. Perhaps something that was current at the time the latest Linux drivers for my video chipset came out. Maybe I'll do that if the system (now back on Windows 10) starts running into errors installing updates again... It's important though in this case that I use something lightweight. Unity is all but that.

                                        M Offline
                                        M Offline
                                        Munchies_Matt
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #29

                                        I believe at login you can chose unity 2D instead of 3D. 2D is lighter I believe.

                                        D 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • M Munchies_Matt

                                          I believe at login you can chose unity 2D instead of 3D. 2D is lighter I believe.

                                          D Offline
                                          D Offline
                                          dandy72
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #30

                                          I'll try to find out if/when I reinstall Linux on that machine. Right now that's not in my plans.

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