Roland TD-25 motherboard removing USB 2.0 / installing USB 3.0 possible ?
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Hi, Soldering is not something I've done many times however, I do have a question that I'm not sure can be answered. I can't find motherboard schematics on the device. issue : Roland TD drums is USB 2.0 out / need 3.0 out .. 2.0 too slow Is it possible to take out the USB 2.0 and install 3.0. Yes this would be a hack. This probably will require a firmware update( reverse engineer ) but not real clear on how USB 2.0 handles i/o. Not real clear on buffering or hardware requirements ( guessing controller dev probably just only allows buffering that 2.0 can deal with which is fine. It's the speed of 3.0 that I'm looking for ) The TD-25 TD-30 or TD-20( more pics of the 20 on google images ) may give you some idea .. Any Ideas ?
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Hi, Soldering is not something I've done many times however, I do have a question that I'm not sure can be answered. I can't find motherboard schematics on the device. issue : Roland TD drums is USB 2.0 out / need 3.0 out .. 2.0 too slow Is it possible to take out the USB 2.0 and install 3.0. Yes this would be a hack. This probably will require a firmware update( reverse engineer ) but not real clear on how USB 2.0 handles i/o. Not real clear on buffering or hardware requirements ( guessing controller dev probably just only allows buffering that 2.0 can deal with which is fine. It's the speed of 3.0 that I'm looking for ) The TD-25 TD-30 or TD-20( more pics of the 20 on google images ) may give you some idea .. Any Ideas ?
Almost certainly not. USB3 is orders of magnitude faster than USB2, and it's very unlikely that the chipset silicon designed for the slow data rate could even begin to keep up at the higher speed, even if we ignore the other differences. And that's without the appropriate drivers... And the chipset for USB2 has no idea how USB3 negotiation is handled, so a USB3 device plugged in would still only work at USB2. It's not really practical to try and change the chips themselves, most modern stuff is BGA (teeny tiny balls under the chip where you can't reach them) or fine pitch SMT (where you need specialist tools to desolder / solder without pulling the PCB to bits - Weller do a Flow-tip for some of their irons which can cope with 0.5mm pin pitch for assembly, but disassembly needs heatguns and a lot of care). Even if you had the kit, without circuit diagrams it would be a nightmare. Bear in mind that complicated PCBS tend to be multilayer as well, so just following tracks needs a damn X-ray machine... Unless you are a seriously good solderer I'd have to suggest you look at upgrading kit if something's too slow - home alterations to modern PCB's are unlikely to succeed.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Almost certainly not. USB3 is orders of magnitude faster than USB2, and it's very unlikely that the chipset silicon designed for the slow data rate could even begin to keep up at the higher speed, even if we ignore the other differences. And that's without the appropriate drivers... And the chipset for USB2 has no idea how USB3 negotiation is handled, so a USB3 device plugged in would still only work at USB2. It's not really practical to try and change the chips themselves, most modern stuff is BGA (teeny tiny balls under the chip where you can't reach them) or fine pitch SMT (where you need specialist tools to desolder / solder without pulling the PCB to bits - Weller do a Flow-tip for some of their irons which can cope with 0.5mm pin pitch for assembly, but disassembly needs heatguns and a lot of care). Even if you had the kit, without circuit diagrams it would be a nightmare. Bear in mind that complicated PCBS tend to be multilayer as well, so just following tracks needs a damn X-ray machine... Unless you are a seriously good solderer I'd have to suggest you look at upgrading kit if something's too slow - home alterations to modern PCB's are unlikely to succeed.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Thanks for the detailed answer ! Oh well :) ( Pls ignore the comment above where I wrote replace 2.0 w/ 3.0 (hardware) .. Obviously, error checking would fail at the receiving end every time w/o firmware update ) These days acoustic drummers are using electric kits to practice. We are triggering drum software on laptops etc for extremely high quality ( studio recorded .. Superior Drummer 3 .. better sound than module ) drum sounds. As usual latency ( usb 2.0 / MIDI ) is an issue along with win drivers ( asio4all driver helps ). Anyway, just looking to see if my question was an option as 3.0 is much faster. Thanks again !
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Hi, Soldering is not something I've done many times however, I do have a question that I'm not sure can be answered. I can't find motherboard schematics on the device. issue : Roland TD drums is USB 2.0 out / need 3.0 out .. 2.0 too slow Is it possible to take out the USB 2.0 and install 3.0. Yes this would be a hack. This probably will require a firmware update( reverse engineer ) but not real clear on how USB 2.0 handles i/o. Not real clear on buffering or hardware requirements ( guessing controller dev probably just only allows buffering that 2.0 can deal with which is fine. It's the speed of 3.0 that I'm looking for ) The TD-25 TD-30 or TD-20( more pics of the 20 on google images ) may give you some idea .. Any Ideas ?
I'm going with Griff on this one While the USB port itself maybe a simple physical upgrade, all of the supporting infrastructure of wiring, controllers, and other chips going to need to be upgraded as well. Once that is done custom coding is most likely going to be needed to get this to play nicely with the rest of the system. And when that is all done you will most likely find out that the rest of the system doesn't have the bus speed and bandwidth.
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I'm going with Griff on this one While the USB port itself maybe a simple physical upgrade, all of the supporting infrastructure of wiring, controllers, and other chips going to need to be upgraded as well. Once that is done custom coding is most likely going to be needed to get this to play nicely with the rest of the system. And when that is all done you will most likely find out that the rest of the system doesn't have the bus speed and bandwidth.
Director of Transmogrification Services Shinobi of Query Language Master of Yoda Conditional
No. This spec extends from the USB connector, though the chipset, that open collector buffer thing all the back to the firmware implementation. Are you certain the latencies you are experiencing are truly due the the speed of usb 2.0? Your issues are likely your output sound setup (DAW etc...) and not usb 2.0. Chances are your notes are getting to the output device on time and then being backed up by plugin delay compensation or ASIO buffer size etc. Various DAWs do tight midi to differing degrees. With word on the street that Cubase is best in this regard. Remember: good old midi (5 pin DIN) was 110 baud. Were talkin iceberg slow. And every thing was good. That speed can keep up with the fastest music any human may want to hear. USB 2.0 blows old midi away.
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Thanks for the detailed answer ! Oh well :) ( Pls ignore the comment above where I wrote replace 2.0 w/ 3.0 (hardware) .. Obviously, error checking would fail at the receiving end every time w/o firmware update ) These days acoustic drummers are using electric kits to practice. We are triggering drum software on laptops etc for extremely high quality ( studio recorded .. Superior Drummer 3 .. better sound than module ) drum sounds. As usual latency ( usb 2.0 / MIDI ) is an issue along with win drivers ( asio4all driver helps ). Anyway, just looking to see if my question was an option as 3.0 is much faster. Thanks again !
I came across the same issue trying to run UVI Workstation from a MIDI connected keyboard. As you said, the asio4all driver helps but the latency is still noticeable...enough so that I lost interest and haven't played it in over a year. I still have a digital piano in the living room but was looking for something that could replicate my first keyboard, a Korg DW-8000. I'm really not sure that the USB 2.0 connection is the cause of the latency, but rather suspect it might be due to issues with your sound card. Good luck! :) Edit: There was a time when I was able to plug a bass into a line-in on the sound card and jam with media player either through my nice computer speaker system or through headphones...with no noticable latency. When I moved to Windows 7, despite having better hardware, and despite using the asio4all driver, the latency issue made it impossible. The solution: Move my bass amp into my home office. One of these days, and soon, I intend to buy an external device dedicated for this purpose so I can go back to using the headphones. :)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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Hi, Soldering is not something I've done many times however, I do have a question that I'm not sure can be answered. I can't find motherboard schematics on the device. issue : Roland TD drums is USB 2.0 out / need 3.0 out .. 2.0 too slow Is it possible to take out the USB 2.0 and install 3.0. Yes this would be a hack. This probably will require a firmware update( reverse engineer ) but not real clear on how USB 2.0 handles i/o. Not real clear on buffering or hardware requirements ( guessing controller dev probably just only allows buffering that 2.0 can deal with which is fine. It's the speed of 3.0 that I'm looking for ) The TD-25 TD-30 or TD-20( more pics of the 20 on google images ) may give you some idea .. Any Ideas ?
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Almost certainly not. USB3 is orders of magnitude faster than USB2, and it's very unlikely that the chipset silicon designed for the slow data rate could even begin to keep up at the higher speed, even if we ignore the other differences. And that's without the appropriate drivers... And the chipset for USB2 has no idea how USB3 negotiation is handled, so a USB3 device plugged in would still only work at USB2. It's not really practical to try and change the chips themselves, most modern stuff is BGA (teeny tiny balls under the chip where you can't reach them) or fine pitch SMT (where you need specialist tools to desolder / solder without pulling the PCB to bits - Weller do a Flow-tip for some of their irons which can cope with 0.5mm pin pitch for assembly, but disassembly needs heatguns and a lot of care). Even if you had the kit, without circuit diagrams it would be a nightmare. Bear in mind that complicated PCBS tend to be multilayer as well, so just following tracks needs a damn X-ray machine... Unless you are a seriously good solderer I'd have to suggest you look at upgrading kit if something's too slow - home alterations to modern PCB's are unlikely to succeed.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
I agree with everything OG has said on this, but I would offer two further points to consider: USB 2.0 can operate at 60 MBS (that's bytes not bits). Nyquist theory for A2D conversion -basically- says that sampling anything above 2 X Freq_max is good, suggesting that for audio, sampling above 40 KHz would serve the audio spectrum. You have lots of slack in 60 MBS. The second point is that windows is time non-deterministic in events. That is, you do not know if USB events are 15 ms between, or 50 ms between, you have no capability of forcing this. And for the software to do the turn-around takes a bunch of time. To do time deterministic events, you would need a Real Time Operating System or RTOS like some versions of Linux or QNX or NI Labview RT. That said, I don't think your problem is in the USB 2.0 area, but in some other area that is causing the delays.
Ken
