C# is dead on arrival
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C# and .net will replace IIS. People who are doing n-tier development with j2ee (java enterprise edition) won't switch to windows, and I am one of them. I've done windows development for over 8 years and I spent that last year doing j2ee ntier system using web logic, jsp, and it is so easy. I tried .NET sample and man there is way too much stuff in there and the rampup time will be a killer. So with todays economy and market, people will stick to what they know before learning something new. Except of course for the people using IIS which is totally crap compare to j2ee. :cool: Pat
huh? .net adds functionality to iis,, iis is the enabling gateway for much of the distributed functionality of .net iis compared to j2ee is apples and oranges, j2ee and com+ would be a better comparison, but i've never touched java nor j2ee, so i don't have an opinion the samples that ms released for the .net framework were so that the guys who want to dig into the .net framework can play with things like soap and whatnot for writing real applications on top of the framework, get the vs.net beta 2 now, one thing i can agree with you is that the .net initiative hasn't relly shown us how the midle tier services are exposed in the framework, the transactional features have not been released (that i've seen) -John
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C# and .net will replace IIS. People who are doing n-tier development with j2ee (java enterprise edition) won't switch to windows, and I am one of them. I've done windows development for over 8 years and I spent that last year doing j2ee ntier system using web logic, jsp, and it is so easy. I tried .NET sample and man there is way too much stuff in there and the rampup time will be a killer. So with todays economy and market, people will stick to what they know before learning something new. Except of course for the people using IIS which is totally crap compare to j2ee. :cool: Pat
"C# and .net will replace IIS" :confused: What do you mean by that? IIS is a web server, and it can be replaced only by another Web server (like Apache), and not by any programming language or application framework. As for j2ee, I've never worked with that, but as far as I now it is a standard for ntier development, and it makes no sense to say "IIS is totally crap compare to j2ee". I vote pro drink X|
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I've used pratically every microsoft development enivronment, staring with VB 3.0. (I loved that by the way). I have spent the last five years developing C++ with Microsoft Visual Studio. I dont feel that C# was a very smart move. Java programmers are not going to switch to C# in any significant way and C++ programmers, without features such as templates are not going to switch either. Visual basic programmers are all pissed cause this version of VB.net will again require complete re-writes. I would hate to be VB programmer because every new version of VB introdues entirely new language features that require rewrites of everything but the most trivial applications. I already can see the writing on the wall for C#... its probably going to be dead on arrival. I hope not... but who is the market.. how will use it. Which group of programmers will switch to it... I cant think of any. I am convinsed that C++ will continue to be the premiere development language. Microsoft should have spent there billions on making C++ even better with better standards compliance. It makes me scream to think that we have not had a new version of the C++ compiler for years because of all this C# and .Net stuff.
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I've used pratically every microsoft development enivronment, staring with VB 3.0. (I loved that by the way). I have spent the last five years developing C++ with Microsoft Visual Studio. I dont feel that C# was a very smart move. Java programmers are not going to switch to C# in any significant way and C++ programmers, without features such as templates are not going to switch either. Visual basic programmers are all pissed cause this version of VB.net will again require complete re-writes. I would hate to be VB programmer because every new version of VB introdues entirely new language features that require rewrites of everything but the most trivial applications. I already can see the writing on the wall for C#... its probably going to be dead on arrival. I hope not... but who is the market.. how will use it. Which group of programmers will switch to it... I cant think of any. I am convinsed that C++ will continue to be the premiere development language. Microsoft should have spent there billions on making C++ even better with better standards compliance. It makes me scream to think that we have not had a new version of the C++ compiler for years because of all this C# and .Net stuff.
Tom, Can you expand on what kind of programming you do, and what you like from a language? You may not be in the C# target audience. If the thought of using a managed environment (garbage collection, not writing your own allocators, not controlling whether objects are heap or stack allocated) does appeal to you, then you won't like C#, because our assumption is that if you're considering C#, you've already decided (or are willing to evaluate) that a managed environment has some good benefits, the most obvious one being of productivity. When perf or low-level control is really important, than C++ is the better language. C# tries to give you low-level control when you need it, but only within the constraints of the runtime. I wouldn't - right now at least - suggest writing a game engine in it, but it might make sense to write the AI portion of a game in it. I'm from a C++ background myself, and I've written a fair amount of code in both C and C++. C# is a different paradigm, but for the apps I've written (which are pretty tiny at this point), I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC. C# has garnered a lot of attention from early adopters, and the bulk of the comments have been positive. We won't know how the general population will view it until it's released.
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Tom, Can you expand on what kind of programming you do, and what you like from a language? You may not be in the C# target audience. If the thought of using a managed environment (garbage collection, not writing your own allocators, not controlling whether objects are heap or stack allocated) does appeal to you, then you won't like C#, because our assumption is that if you're considering C#, you've already decided (or are willing to evaluate) that a managed environment has some good benefits, the most obvious one being of productivity. When perf or low-level control is really important, than C++ is the better language. C# tries to give you low-level control when you need it, but only within the constraints of the runtime. I wouldn't - right now at least - suggest writing a game engine in it, but it might make sense to write the AI portion of a game in it. I'm from a C++ background myself, and I've written a fair amount of code in both C and C++. C# is a different paradigm, but for the apps I've written (which are pretty tiny at this point), I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC. C# has garnered a lot of attention from early adopters, and the bulk of the comments have been positive. We won't know how the general population will view it until it's released.
I just got back from this Microsoft seminar: Microsoft .NET Developer Training Tour and while they talked up VB.NET, they pretty much downplayed C# and went out of their way to trash C++ as a useful development language with a future (an opinion I disagree with). VStudio.NET Beta 2 was pretty impressive albeit fairly slow even on a 1GHz machine with 384M RAM. It only crashed once, but they were doing very small canned demos. The Mobile Internet Toolkit was also very impressive. They even mentioned a C# to VB.NET conversion utility which in conjunction with a Java to C# conversion utility seems to be the basis of Microsoft's JUMP (Java Users Migration Program). Steven J. Ackerman, Consultant ACS, Sarasota, FL http://www.acscontrol.com steve@acscontrol.com sja@gte.net
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Come on Oliver... MFC hasnt changed in at least five years and hundreds of successful applications have been developed with it. Its the same old framework that it has always been. What do you mean it has got bloated. Over what time frame, please justify your opinion... You probably never spent the time to learn MFC even though you have been using it for 6 years. I know plenty of MFC developers like you... Good luck on your switching to C#. i hope it works out for you.
I personally think MFC still has its place, but that this place is becoming smaller and smaller. There are many ways in which it is bloated, for instance its collection classes - everyone seems to use STL now (apart from in bigger projects which have already been written using the MFC collection classes. I'm sure there are other examples also. It is a good framework but out of date in many respects. I think it's a good idea to be starting afresh with a new set of ideas and a new framework and way of doing things that is designed and not adapted for the Internet age. > Andrew.
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Tom, Can you expand on what kind of programming you do, and what you like from a language? You may not be in the C# target audience. If the thought of using a managed environment (garbage collection, not writing your own allocators, not controlling whether objects are heap or stack allocated) does appeal to you, then you won't like C#, because our assumption is that if you're considering C#, you've already decided (or are willing to evaluate) that a managed environment has some good benefits, the most obvious one being of productivity. When perf or low-level control is really important, than C++ is the better language. C# tries to give you low-level control when you need it, but only within the constraints of the runtime. I wouldn't - right now at least - suggest writing a game engine in it, but it might make sense to write the AI portion of a game in it. I'm from a C++ background myself, and I've written a fair amount of code in both C and C++. C# is a different paradigm, but for the apps I've written (which are pretty tiny at this point), I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC. C# has garnered a lot of attention from early adopters, and the bulk of the comments have been positive. We won't know how the general population will view it until it's released.
Hm... You say productivity but why do I hear quantity instead of quality? (eg: I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC ) I think that what frustrates the people around here is that Microsoft spent so much time and effort on C# and so little on C++. Now trying to convince: Java people to change the language, VB people to re-write and C++ people to convert and use "managed" C++. In the long run, as managers will push "managed" C++ on developers I think there might be a shift of people to Unix/Linux environment or Borland C++ compilers. Right now Linux is suffering the lack of applications, so it comes at the "right time" actually. Put it together with a new "activation" ideas for the XP - even the users might shift too. One thing is sure - it's going to be interesting to watch it! :)
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Tom, Can you expand on what kind of programming you do, and what you like from a language? You may not be in the C# target audience. If the thought of using a managed environment (garbage collection, not writing your own allocators, not controlling whether objects are heap or stack allocated) does appeal to you, then you won't like C#, because our assumption is that if you're considering C#, you've already decided (or are willing to evaluate) that a managed environment has some good benefits, the most obvious one being of productivity. When perf or low-level control is really important, than C++ is the better language. C# tries to give you low-level control when you need it, but only within the constraints of the runtime. I wouldn't - right now at least - suggest writing a game engine in it, but it might make sense to write the AI portion of a game in it. I'm from a C++ background myself, and I've written a fair amount of code in both C and C++. C# is a different paradigm, but for the apps I've written (which are pretty tiny at this point), I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC. C# has garnered a lot of attention from early adopters, and the bulk of the comments have been positive. We won't know how the general population will view it until it's released.
Thanks eric. I'm an application developer for a large bank, and i develop custom applications on my own for clients in the evenings. My employer developed a complete banking application for medium size banks that uses STL/MFC and Oracle/Sybase in the back end. Our marketing department states that over 500 banks use the application world wide. Granted I was only a small part of that application, but I do understand it pretty well. Our company uses a variety of technolgies from practically all major vendors it seems. I have personally only developed using microsoft tools, primarily VC++ and VB. (VC++ is my prefernece). I have developed a real fondness for STL lately and humbly would have to say that it is the COOLEST thing around. I realize of course, that MFC is appropriate for many types of applications but certinaly not for internet development. VB sucks in my opinion... and I dread any assignments that force me to use it. There is alot of anti-microsoft sentiment at my company. I am one of a handful of envanjalists for microsoft technologies here. I can't tell you how many times I found myself in the role of defending the use of Microsoft Tools. Generally, I have very few complaints personaly about decisions Microsoft has made. However, I now appreciate many of the arguments that the anti-microsoft crowd make. C++ has not let us down. It the most flexible development language around and STL is capable of doing anyting you could possibly dream up. Introducing a new language (C#) just makes it very confusing for me. Why would I, a C++ programmer, ever even think of using C#. C++ and STL can already do, or soon will be able to, everything that I need. And for cross platform devlopment, JAVA is just fine. (Although the IDE's suck) By the way, I was recently assigned to a Java J2EE project. Our company is totally converting to J2EE. The banking application I just mentioned is being converted to J2EE as we speak (UGHHH). There isnt even a whisper here about converting our application to C#. If I did happen to mention it... I would get laughed at. My sense is that C# has a long road to haul for any real acceptance. Tom
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I've used pratically every microsoft development enivronment, staring with VB 3.0. (I loved that by the way). I have spent the last five years developing C++ with Microsoft Visual Studio. I dont feel that C# was a very smart move. Java programmers are not going to switch to C# in any significant way and C++ programmers, without features such as templates are not going to switch either. Visual basic programmers are all pissed cause this version of VB.net will again require complete re-writes. I would hate to be VB programmer because every new version of VB introdues entirely new language features that require rewrites of everything but the most trivial applications. I already can see the writing on the wall for C#... its probably going to be dead on arrival. I hope not... but who is the market.. how will use it. Which group of programmers will switch to it... I cant think of any. I am convinsed that C++ will continue to be the premiere development language. Microsoft should have spent there billions on making C++ even better with better standards compliance. It makes me scream to think that we have not had a new version of the C++ compiler for years because of all this C# and .Net stuff.
C# would be my choice hands down for writing component-based software for .NET (ASP.NET, distributed applications). While .NET provides infrastructure, C# has features that make it a breeze to write components (notably, events). Another plus of this language is that it is easy to "read". I don't think C# is good for thick clients though. And not because .NET Windows Forms are inadequete (although they are not as rich as all the extention classes in MFC realm). It is just the fact that a thick client achitecture usually involves some sort of a framework that it is built around and I did not find C# particular good at designing frameworks (generics would be good here) Regards, Andrei Zenkovitch
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huh? .net adds functionality to iis,, iis is the enabling gateway for much of the distributed functionality of .net iis compared to j2ee is apples and oranges, j2ee and com+ would be a better comparison, but i've never touched java nor j2ee, so i don't have an opinion the samples that ms released for the .net framework were so that the guys who want to dig into the .net framework can play with things like soap and whatnot for writing real applications on top of the framework, get the vs.net beta 2 now, one thing i can agree with you is that the .net initiative hasn't relly shown us how the midle tier services are exposed in the framework, the transactional features have not been released (that i've seen) -John
Basically you've got SOAP or old good TCP as default transport. You can buid your own if you want to (I do not know how easy it is to do). Remote instantiation is similar to DCOM (I am not going into details here). But they do have Web services as a prebuilt solution. Docs on remoting were quite bad for beta1. Did not check them in beta2, but I wouldn't expect them to be much better. Frankly, .NET still has to prove itself as a viable framework for distributed applications. If it happens then C# could be a good candidate for component-based distributed application development as well as an obvious choice for ASP.NET development Regards, Andrei Zenkovitch
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Thanks eric. I'm an application developer for a large bank, and i develop custom applications on my own for clients in the evenings. My employer developed a complete banking application for medium size banks that uses STL/MFC and Oracle/Sybase in the back end. Our marketing department states that over 500 banks use the application world wide. Granted I was only a small part of that application, but I do understand it pretty well. Our company uses a variety of technolgies from practically all major vendors it seems. I have personally only developed using microsoft tools, primarily VC++ and VB. (VC++ is my prefernece). I have developed a real fondness for STL lately and humbly would have to say that it is the COOLEST thing around. I realize of course, that MFC is appropriate for many types of applications but certinaly not for internet development. VB sucks in my opinion... and I dread any assignments that force me to use it. There is alot of anti-microsoft sentiment at my company. I am one of a handful of envanjalists for microsoft technologies here. I can't tell you how many times I found myself in the role of defending the use of Microsoft Tools. Generally, I have very few complaints personaly about decisions Microsoft has made. However, I now appreciate many of the arguments that the anti-microsoft crowd make. C++ has not let us down. It the most flexible development language around and STL is capable of doing anyting you could possibly dream up. Introducing a new language (C#) just makes it very confusing for me. Why would I, a C++ programmer, ever even think of using C#. C++ and STL can already do, or soon will be able to, everything that I need. And for cross platform devlopment, JAVA is just fine. (Although the IDE's suck) By the way, I was recently assigned to a Java J2EE project. Our company is totally converting to J2EE. The banking application I just mentioned is being converted to J2EE as we speak (UGHHH). There isnt even a whisper here about converting our application to C#. If I did happen to mention it... I would get laughed at. My sense is that C# has a long road to haul for any real acceptance. Tom
Tom, Let me ask you a question. If you were going for a long term holiday to China, would you attempt to learn some Chinese before you went? If you were going to Spain would you learn some Spanish? Sure you can express yourself very well in English, but if you are trying to talk to a Chinese shopkeeper in one of the remote provinces then its not really going to serve you well. The same thing applies to programming languages. C++, C#, Java, VB, COBOL are all tools. To answer your question "Why would I, as a C++ programmer, ever even think of using C#?" You should use the appropriate tool for the job that you are trying to do. If you are asked to write a distributed internet application, C++ probably wont cut it. Then C# or Java may be appropriate. Tom wrote: "There isnt even a whisper here about converting our application to C#. If I did happen to mention it... I would get laughed at." Nor should there be. You have a perfectly good working application with a lot of expertise in C++. Why rewrite it if you dont have to? C# is definetly not a new paradigm in programming language evolution. It may not be for every one, in fact I can state confidently that it will not be for everyone. However, I believe that excellent programmers take the time to learn outside their field. Learning a new language, one that you may not even use commercially is not a waste of time, it can only improve a developers existing skills and understanding. Long live multi-lingual software developers!! ;-)
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C# and the .NET infrastructure makes web and distributed programming MUCH easier. ASP.NET runs compiled code, not script, is multithreaded out of the box... winform programming is an elegant and simple method of programming desktop applications. ask norm almond about this, he is a convert... try c# for awhile, write a not-so-simple distributed app or a web service. you might change your mind... -John
C# makes form based programming a breeze. Whilst having the option to develop a configuration database for a system we're working I had the option to use C# or C++ - I would never use VB. It would of taken 7 to 10 days to develop such a program in C++ it took me just three days in C#. C# will definitely be the viable option for C++ programmers. If you loo at Visual studio.Net you'll find some of the components are written in C#, take the property list box for instance - thats encouraging. Anyway learning C# makes the transistion to Java much easier ;) Norm "One of the converted"
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I've used pratically every microsoft development enivronment, staring with VB 3.0. (I loved that by the way). I have spent the last five years developing C++ with Microsoft Visual Studio. I dont feel that C# was a very smart move. Java programmers are not going to switch to C# in any significant way and C++ programmers, without features such as templates are not going to switch either. Visual basic programmers are all pissed cause this version of VB.net will again require complete re-writes. I would hate to be VB programmer because every new version of VB introdues entirely new language features that require rewrites of everything but the most trivial applications. I already can see the writing on the wall for C#... its probably going to be dead on arrival. I hope not... but who is the market.. how will use it. Which group of programmers will switch to it... I cant think of any. I am convinsed that C++ will continue to be the premiere development language. Microsoft should have spent there billions on making C++ even better with better standards compliance. It makes me scream to think that we have not had a new version of the C++ compiler for years because of all this C# and .Net stuff.
The aim of C# is to bring RAD to the C and C++ developer. (2b || !2b)
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I just got back from this Microsoft seminar: Microsoft .NET Developer Training Tour and while they talked up VB.NET, they pretty much downplayed C# and went out of their way to trash C++ as a useful development language with a future (an opinion I disagree with). VStudio.NET Beta 2 was pretty impressive albeit fairly slow even on a 1GHz machine with 384M RAM. It only crashed once, but they were doing very small canned demos. The Mobile Internet Toolkit was also very impressive. They even mentioned a C# to VB.NET conversion utility which in conjunction with a Java to C# conversion utility seems to be the basis of Microsoft's JUMP (Java Users Migration Program). Steven J. Ackerman, Consultant ACS, Sarasota, FL http://www.acscontrol.com steve@acscontrol.com sja@gte.net
Steven, Can you tell me (here or through email) a few more details about where you attended this and who put it on, so I can look into it a bit more? Thanks.
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Hm... You say productivity but why do I hear quantity instead of quality? (eg: I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC ) I think that what frustrates the people around here is that Microsoft spent so much time and effort on C# and so little on C++. Now trying to convince: Java people to change the language, VB people to re-write and C++ people to convert and use "managed" C++. In the long run, as managers will push "managed" C++ on developers I think there might be a shift of people to Unix/Linux environment or Borland C++ compilers. Right now Linux is suffering the lack of applications, so it comes at the "right time" actually. Put it together with a new "activation" ideas for the XP - even the users might shift too. One thing is sure - it's going to be interesting to watch it! :)
Hm... You say productivity but why do I hear quantity instead of quality? (eg: I was able to do it much much faster than I could in MFC ) **** To clarify, when I say "faster", I mean "faster and with a result that's just as good", not just "faster". And when I say faster, in my experience, for the programs I've written (which tend to be utility-sized), that tends to be anywhere from 2x to 10x faster. Having a real Regex class, for example, can give me 10x when I need such a class. **** I think that what frustrates the people around here is that Microsoft spent so much time and effort on C# and so little on C++. **** If you're talking about how much time was spent on C# and all the underlying mechanics that it uses (the runtime and the frameworks), then we did spend a lot more time there than on C++. If you're talking on how much was spent purely on the compilers, then the C# effort is of similar size to the C++ effort. And, of course, the C++ team spent quite a bit of effort doing the managed extensions to C++. And I think that was appropriate, as I think a managed environment is the future for a large portion of programmers. The advantages are too great, and the disadvantages aren't important in many cases. That isn't to say that this applies to *all* programs; there is (and likely always will be) a class of problem where managed code isn't the right solution, because sometimes you need all the power and low-level control you can get. I've been associated with C++ for quite a while, and when I was coding heavily, I was reasonably good at it. C# took a bit of getting used to, and I missed some of the low-level control that I used to have. But once I found my way around the framework, things got a lot easier to deal with, and I found I can write good code really fast. When I go back to writing C++, I have more control but it's a lot more work to get things done. Having said all that, I understand what you're saying, and I think it would be better addressed by letting you talk to a C++ person rather than a C# person who used to be a C++ person. I'm trying to set something like that up. ****
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Thanks eric. I'm an application developer for a large bank, and i develop custom applications on my own for clients in the evenings. My employer developed a complete banking application for medium size banks that uses STL/MFC and Oracle/Sybase in the back end. Our marketing department states that over 500 banks use the application world wide. Granted I was only a small part of that application, but I do understand it pretty well. Our company uses a variety of technolgies from practically all major vendors it seems. I have personally only developed using microsoft tools, primarily VC++ and VB. (VC++ is my prefernece). I have developed a real fondness for STL lately and humbly would have to say that it is the COOLEST thing around. I realize of course, that MFC is appropriate for many types of applications but certinaly not for internet development. VB sucks in my opinion... and I dread any assignments that force me to use it. There is alot of anti-microsoft sentiment at my company. I am one of a handful of envanjalists for microsoft technologies here. I can't tell you how many times I found myself in the role of defending the use of Microsoft Tools. Generally, I have very few complaints personaly about decisions Microsoft has made. However, I now appreciate many of the arguments that the anti-microsoft crowd make. C++ has not let us down. It the most flexible development language around and STL is capable of doing anyting you could possibly dream up. Introducing a new language (C#) just makes it very confusing for me. Why would I, a C++ programmer, ever even think of using C#. C++ and STL can already do, or soon will be able to, everything that I need. And for cross platform devlopment, JAVA is just fine. (Although the IDE's suck) By the way, I was recently assigned to a Java J2EE project. Our company is totally converting to J2EE. The banking application I just mentioned is being converted to J2EE as we speak (UGHHH). There isnt even a whisper here about converting our application to C#. If I did happen to mention it... I would get laughed at. My sense is that C# has a long road to haul for any real acceptance. Tom
C++ has not let us down. It the most flexible development language around and STL is capable of doing anyting you could possibly dream up. Introducing a new language (C#) just makes it very confusing for me. Why would I, a C++ programmer, ever even think of using C#. **** I think there are a couple of reasons why you should consider C#, but rather than list reasons, I'm going to ask you a question: If you could develop applications in C# that ran as fast as your existing C++ applications and you could do it in half the time and with half the bugs, would you consider it? If not, then you shouldn't read further; it's likely that you value full control really highly. If you would consider it, what if the question was the same, but instead of the code being exactly as fast, it was X% slower? What values of X would you consider, and what ones would you reject? Though this is hugely application-dependent, I think C# can deliver code that's in the range of 75% to 90% of full C++ speed (there are outliers on both sides; you might see C# be slower than that or sometimes faster than C++ code). That's from a language perspective. From a framework perspective, I think there are even greater differences. If you're doing web development, ASP.NET is a whole lot faster and a whole lot easier than ASP was. If you want to do transactioning things, you can do that in C# in a "built-in" sort of way, without having to go to the work of implementing COM objects in C++. Similarly, if you're interested in web services, you can enable your object to be exposed from a web service with virtually no effort. The frameworks are also much more consistent, with respect to things like error handling and API models that dealing with them is much easier than the C++ Win32 APIs, and helpful features like IntelliSense are better because the metadata information is more complete. I agree that C++ will never let you down; you are going to run into few walls with it. But because you always have low-level control, you always have to worry about things like who owns pointers, are they all getting freed correctly, etc. I think I'd sum up the tradeoff as "C++ will always get you there, but it make take a fair amount of work to get there, and C# will get you there most of the time with less effort". ****
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Steven, Can you tell me (here or through email) a few more details about where you attended this and who put it on, so I can look into it a bit more? Thanks.
Eric- Requested response sent via email. Steven J. Ackerman, Consultant ACS, Sarasota, FL http://www.acscontrol.com steve@acscontrol.com sja@gte.net