Why not an UN resolution for..
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Careful - the euro-standard is just uniformly ass-backwards. D-M-Y (any number of digits you prefer) sorts totally wrong. Period. YYYYMMDD is the only rational format as it can be sorted as is, even as text - but can be stored/sorted as an int. (I leave off proper date objects as they'd sort regardless). Just the usual Eurogance (the now and forever word for European arrogance). Time you just get over yourselves. Get some laxatives - clear your thoughts.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I certainly don't recognize what you are referring to, arguing in favor of yyyymmdd sort of as opposed to some "Eurogance". ISO 8601 has been adopted in Europe to a much higher degree than in the US, many years ago. Obviously, thirty years ago (when ISO 8601 was first published) there were other ways of writing dates. Some schemes were integrated in formal systems, such as the Norwegian "fødseslsnummer" (birth number, a rough equivalent to the social security number in the USA) where the person's ddmmyy birth date make up 6 of the 11 digits. When ISO 8601 was introduced, this 20+ year old scheme was not changed, and still remains. But for the great majority of new schemes established after 1988, the yyyy-mm-dd (with the hyphens, according to the international standard) format is used. Obviously, ISO 8601 was not out of the blue, either: The 8601 format was well known even before 1988. In informal contexts and particularly orally, other schemes (such as "thirteenth of June") is still in use. In formal contexts, ISO 8601 has a very strong position (unless old conventions must be followed, such as the fødselsnummer). Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens. Not as an 8-digit string. Not with slashes, but according to the international standard.
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If dates were alway yyyymmdd (with or without delimiters), it would not be a problem for left-to-right readers at all. Those of us who can read process so much information in the background that it will be adapted to as effortless. lkie radendg tihs - at lseat for nvtaie Enisglh uesrs.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
One funny observation: We use "Arabic" numerals, reading left to right, reading the most significant digit first. In Arabic, they represent the numbers the same way, reading from right to left, reading the least significant digit first. In several European languages, including slightly archaic English, there are remains of least-to-most-significant reading: "four and twenty blackbirds". Even in modern German, you put the ones before the tens. In most Western languages, for the teens you put the ones before the ten: Four-teen, six-teen.
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I certainly don't recognize what you are referring to, arguing in favor of yyyymmdd sort of as opposed to some "Eurogance". ISO 8601 has been adopted in Europe to a much higher degree than in the US, many years ago. Obviously, thirty years ago (when ISO 8601 was first published) there were other ways of writing dates. Some schemes were integrated in formal systems, such as the Norwegian "fødseslsnummer" (birth number, a rough equivalent to the social security number in the USA) where the person's ddmmyy birth date make up 6 of the 11 digits. When ISO 8601 was introduced, this 20+ year old scheme was not changed, and still remains. But for the great majority of new schemes established after 1988, the yyyy-mm-dd (with the hyphens, according to the international standard) format is used. Obviously, ISO 8601 was not out of the blue, either: The 8601 format was well known even before 1988. In informal contexts and particularly orally, other schemes (such as "thirteenth of June") is still in use. In formal contexts, ISO 8601 has a very strong position (unless old conventions must be followed, such as the fødselsnummer). Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens. Not as an 8-digit string. Not with slashes, but according to the international standard.
Member 7989122 wrote:
dopted in Europe to a much higher degree
Worthless subjective conjecture - since I see Euro-dates always as DD-MM-YYYY on, for example, broadcast media (EuroNews, and others) - what you say is non-sense, or as I prefer to put it, yet another example of Eurogance.
Member 7989122 wrote:
Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens.
More Eurogance. If one does ISO 8601 it follows such standards and not others. Otherwise, it doesn't follow the standards. As for yyyy/mm/dd: I've never seen it in the US. It MUST be a European thing. (did you know we don't all wear stetsons and string ties?) Look at the phraseology of your post - how you attempt to make the European usage better with vague claims. Always with the implication that you must be doing it better than the US. A clear sign of the psychological impotence of your position and the progenitor of Eurogance.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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YYYY-MM-DD is great for historical context but not so great for day-to-day. When you read a date, what is the most important portion of that date to you? As someone who natively reads a left-to-right language, I believe the most critical portions should be farthest left. I know, currently, it's Tuesday where I live. Maybe I've been super busy for two weeks and missed that May rolled over into June. For me the most important portion is the month. With that single value alone I can immediately orient myself in time - Tuesday, early June, 2018. Viewing only the year, or only the day, can you claim the same? EDIT: I'm honestly curious (open discussion to anyone). I'm not set on any given methodology; this one just makes more sense to me. Anytime I bring up my reasoning in other discussions I'm dismissed as an American yet they provide no sensible argument to the contrary.
Before IP and SMTP became dominant, there were several alternatives going either way: Largest unit first, or smallet unit first. For geographical locations, putting the smallest unit first (name, apartment, street address, town, country,...) is commonly accepted, and it is reflected in SMTP mail addresses. And in domain / subdomain (DNS) names. But then, go down to the IP address: Now the largest unit comes first! Telephone numbers are the same: The country code preceeds the area code which preceeds the subscriber number. In the telephone directory (and most other similar person registries), the family name (larger unit) comes before the person name ... except in Iceland, where phone directories are ordered by first name. Except that at a higher level, it is organized by town. The empirical evidence suggest that claiming that one way is "the natural" one doesn't hold water. As long as we are used to one way or the other, or a mix of largest or smallest first, then that feels "natural" to us. A check question: How many accepted my list: name-apartment-streetaddress-town-country as a small-to-big list, without questioning it? It is a mixture: In most large apartment buildings, the apartment number is - a lagre-to-small unit. In many (most?) European countries you give the street name (larger unit) before the street number: Main Street 12, rather than the US style: 12 Main Street. But even in the US, many places street numbers are not dense but defined in a street/avenue style: 1204 is number 4 between 12th and 13th avenue - and the 12 in 1204 is the largest unit first! It is a mess. Yet, we manage to handle it.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I agree the Europeans are arrogant, but us British?
In my experience (and at 69 I have quite a lot it) the British are, as a rule, in general (there are exceptions to every rule), not only the most arrogant, but also the most pompous people of any nationality. Just take the whole "s" versus "z" issue as an example. :omg: X| :cool:
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I agree the Europeans are arrogant, but us British?
In my experience (and at 69 I have quite a lot it) the British are, as a rule, in general (there are exceptions to every rule), not only the most arrogant, but also the most pompous people of any nationality. Just take the whole "s" versus "z" issue as an example. :omg: X| :cool:
I guess you have not travelled very much. I have travelled, worked, and lived in most European countries, the Middle East and North America, and am also slightly older than you. My original comment was meant as a joke, hence the smiley. but seriously, I have found that my experience of life has taught me never to judge a nation on the evidence of one or two individuals, whether good or bad.
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YYYY-MM-DD is great for historical context but not so great for day-to-day. When you read a date, what is the most important portion of that date to you? As someone who natively reads a left-to-right language, I believe the most critical portions should be farthest left. I know, currently, it's Tuesday where I live. Maybe I've been super busy for two weeks and missed that May rolled over into June. For me the most important portion is the month. With that single value alone I can immediately orient myself in time - Tuesday, early June, 2018. Viewing only the year, or only the day, can you claim the same? EDIT: I'm honestly curious (open discussion to anyone). I'm not set on any given methodology; this one just makes more sense to me. Anytime I bring up my reasoning in other discussions I'm dismissed as an American yet they provide no sensible argument to the contrary.
The correct way is from left to right, from the bigger to the smaller. Se our URL: www.codeproject.com/script/Forums smaller small big smaller even smaller - complete nonsense. Java has better way as com.codeproject... It makes lexical sorting easier, too.
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Member 7989122 wrote:
dopted in Europe to a much higher degree
Worthless subjective conjecture - since I see Euro-dates always as DD-MM-YYYY on, for example, broadcast media (EuroNews, and others) - what you say is non-sense, or as I prefer to put it, yet another example of Eurogance.
Member 7989122 wrote:
Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens.
More Eurogance. If one does ISO 8601 it follows such standards and not others. Otherwise, it doesn't follow the standards. As for yyyy/mm/dd: I've never seen it in the US. It MUST be a European thing. (did you know we don't all wear stetsons and string ties?) Look at the phraseology of your post - how you attempt to make the European usage better with vague claims. Always with the implication that you must be doing it better than the US. A clear sign of the psychological impotence of your position and the progenitor of Eurogance.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I have lived long enough to see ISO 8601 replacing older schemes in lots of areas. I have even seen old "Imperial" units being replaced with metric units. (When I was a boy, we counted eggs by the score, and my birth certificate states my birth weight in pounds.) If you come in to take a snapshot right now, you don't see the direction in which things are moving. Especially if you have the attitude that "The European way is so-and-so", you can find evidence for that, without knowing what is bound by legacy and which is the preferred way when establishing something new. Furthermore, it seems like you fail to distinguish between informal speech, informal text, and formal, "technical" uses. Like, you may hear a European carpenter refer to a two-by-four in speech, but in all papers, it says 48 by 98 mm (it isn't even two and four times 25.5 mm!). He may refer to his ruler as his "inch-rod", even though the inch marks dissapeared a generation ago. All time-of-day values, e.g. in train/boat/plane schedules are given in 24h format, yet lots of people use 12h format in informal speech: "Meet me around seven, OK?" Europe has largely accepted both the metric system, 24h times, and ISO 8601 format for all formal use. Obviously, in informal contexts, old conventions will not die out overnight, like references to Imperial units are informally used a hundred years after they were abandoned. Yet everybody knows that the unambiguous, formal formats, whether 24h, metric or yyyy-mm-dd is expected in reports, orders, schedules, ... We have no objections to them; we do not fight them. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", but accept that in registries, you are known as "Doe, John". When asked when you were born, you reply "Fourth of July in 1976", but when filling in a form, you have no objections to the "1976-07-04" format. I have not seen any similar movement in the US culture, neither towards metric units, 24h clock nor ISO 8601 dates. To the contrary: You regularly see/hear people turning their back to the metric and international formats, with a rejecting "But why??, often with several arguments to support the old US way. The armed forces are fond of 24h clock, but the civil society still clings to AM/PM. To Imperial units. To June, 13th, 2018. And you are right: Slashes are not uses with yyyymmdd, but with mmddyy: 6/13/18 (or mmddyyyy: 6/13/2018), That is in the US. Some other English-speaking countries do it in another order. (
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standardizing the date formats and just keep it as one. The shorter, longer, the too longer all these differences are fine. I'm just talking about the completely opposite types like MM-DD-YY DD-MM-YY YY-MM-DD This is seriously freaking tiring to handle. All the data sheet exported from system are in MM-DD-YY format, and the customer read them all as DD-MM-YY & feeds into their own internal system. Yeah I head you saying "This is what localization is supposed to fix". But why? why not we fix this in peoples minds and make them follow a unified type. :sigh: :doh:
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy Falcon.
Vunic wrote:
All the data sheet exported from system are in MM-DD-YY format...
Exactly why we have things like datetime data types. Represent the data in a binary format which can't be misinterpreted. Then, the display side can do whatever they want with it. Alternatively, if you insist on text, you could spell out the month in character so there's no misinterpreting which section is month.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I agree the Europeans are arrogant, but us British?
In my experience (and at 69 I have quite a lot it) the British are, as a rule, in general (there are exceptions to every rule), not only the most arrogant, but also the most pompous people of any nationality. Just take the whole "s" versus "z" issue as an example. :omg: X| :cool:
I guess you have only met a few actual British people, and have judged an entire nation on those few meetings. I could make exactly the same claim against Americans from one or two I have met. However, I have also met some extremely nice Americans, and Germans, French, Norwegians, Turks, Kuwaitis, South Africans etc. With apologies to all the other countries I have visited but not mentioned.
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Member 7989122 wrote:
dopted in Europe to a much higher degree
Worthless subjective conjecture - since I see Euro-dates always as DD-MM-YYYY on, for example, broadcast media (EuroNews, and others) - what you say is non-sense, or as I prefer to put it, yet another example of Eurogance.
Member 7989122 wrote:
Note that when Europeans do 8601, they do 8601: With the hyphens.
More Eurogance. If one does ISO 8601 it follows such standards and not others. Otherwise, it doesn't follow the standards. As for yyyy/mm/dd: I've never seen it in the US. It MUST be a European thing. (did you know we don't all wear stetsons and string ties?) Look at the phraseology of your post - how you attempt to make the European usage better with vague claims. Always with the implication that you must be doing it better than the US. A clear sign of the psychological impotence of your position and the progenitor of Eurogance.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Europeans carry lots of legacy. Norway went metric 143 years ago; still carpenters may refer to a two-by-four. But they know that it is not two by four inches, but 48 by 98 mm. Their yardstick (or inchstick, in Norwegian lore) lost the inch markings a generation ago, but the name of the tool remains. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", knowing that in formal registers you are listed as "Doe, John". You say "Meet me around seven", well knowing that in your calender, you write the appointment as 19:00. When asked about your birthdate, you may answer "seventeenth of May, 1976", but when filling in a registration form, 1976-05-17 is usually the expected format. Old traditions survive in informal context, some times for generations after new forms have completely taken over in formal contexts. I am old enough to see the last remains of Imperial units disappearing, 24h clock time becoming more dominant, and: A rapid growth in the use of ISO 8601 formats. The important thing is not that people use a variety of old formats in informal speech and text, but the general acceptance of both metric units, 24h clock and ISO 8601 formats in formal contexts. Noone rises an eyebrow at any of these: They are logical, unambiguous, standard. They are welcomed. That is definitely not my impression of, say, the US civil population. The armed forces have accepted 24h clock, and to some degree metric units, but civil USAnians tend to kick and scream to the slightest hint about abolishing Imperial units, am/pm or the June 13, 2018 format. It is a repeat of the old "The customer can get the T-Ford in any color he wants, if he wants it in black". A standard date format would be welcomed by most Americans, provided it conincides with the format they have always used. If there is any movement towards ISO 8601 in the USA, or the metric system, or 24h clock (which is implied by ISO 8601), it certainly hasn't reached the news. Obviously, old forms will be used informally in the USA if ISO 8601, metric units etc. are introduced in all formal contexts, just like in Europe. I very rarely, if ever, meet USAnians who say "That's fine with me", but I have met quite a few giving me a stream of arguments why changing anything at all would be a very, very bad idea, even in formal contexts. Europe wants it, USA does not want it, even if "allowed" to use the old formats in informal speech and texts. If you think that the civil society in the USA is ready to embrace ISO 8601 and its 24h clock, and maybe metric units as well, I am cur
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I agree the Europeans are arrogant, but us British?
In my experience (and at 69 I have quite a lot it) the British are, as a rule, in general (there are exceptions to every rule), not only the most arrogant, but also the most pompous people of any nationality. Just take the whole "s" versus "z" issue as an example. :omg: X| :cool:
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I have lived long enough to see ISO 8601 replacing older schemes in lots of areas. I have even seen old "Imperial" units being replaced with metric units. (When I was a boy, we counted eggs by the score, and my birth certificate states my birth weight in pounds.) If you come in to take a snapshot right now, you don't see the direction in which things are moving. Especially if you have the attitude that "The European way is so-and-so", you can find evidence for that, without knowing what is bound by legacy and which is the preferred way when establishing something new. Furthermore, it seems like you fail to distinguish between informal speech, informal text, and formal, "technical" uses. Like, you may hear a European carpenter refer to a two-by-four in speech, but in all papers, it says 48 by 98 mm (it isn't even two and four times 25.5 mm!). He may refer to his ruler as his "inch-rod", even though the inch marks dissapeared a generation ago. All time-of-day values, e.g. in train/boat/plane schedules are given in 24h format, yet lots of people use 12h format in informal speech: "Meet me around seven, OK?" Europe has largely accepted both the metric system, 24h times, and ISO 8601 format for all formal use. Obviously, in informal contexts, old conventions will not die out overnight, like references to Imperial units are informally used a hundred years after they were abandoned. Yet everybody knows that the unambiguous, formal formats, whether 24h, metric or yyyy-mm-dd is expected in reports, orders, schedules, ... We have no objections to them; we do not fight them. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", but accept that in registries, you are known as "Doe, John". When asked when you were born, you reply "Fourth of July in 1976", but when filling in a form, you have no objections to the "1976-07-04" format. I have not seen any similar movement in the US culture, neither towards metric units, 24h clock nor ISO 8601 dates. To the contrary: You regularly see/hear people turning their back to the metric and international formats, with a rejecting "But why??, often with several arguments to support the old US way. The armed forces are fond of 24h clock, but the civil society still clings to AM/PM. To Imperial units. To June, 13th, 2018. And you are right: Slashes are not uses with yyyymmdd, but with mmddyy: 6/13/18 (or mmddyyyy: 6/13/2018), That is in the US. Some other English-speaking countries do it in another order. (
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Europeans carry lots of legacy. Norway went metric 143 years ago; still carpenters may refer to a two-by-four. But they know that it is not two by four inches, but 48 by 98 mm. Their yardstick (or inchstick, in Norwegian lore) lost the inch markings a generation ago, but the name of the tool remains. You introduce yourself as "John Doe", knowing that in formal registers you are listed as "Doe, John". You say "Meet me around seven", well knowing that in your calender, you write the appointment as 19:00. When asked about your birthdate, you may answer "seventeenth of May, 1976", but when filling in a registration form, 1976-05-17 is usually the expected format. Old traditions survive in informal context, some times for generations after new forms have completely taken over in formal contexts. I am old enough to see the last remains of Imperial units disappearing, 24h clock time becoming more dominant, and: A rapid growth in the use of ISO 8601 formats. The important thing is not that people use a variety of old formats in informal speech and text, but the general acceptance of both metric units, 24h clock and ISO 8601 formats in formal contexts. Noone rises an eyebrow at any of these: They are logical, unambiguous, standard. They are welcomed. That is definitely not my impression of, say, the US civil population. The armed forces have accepted 24h clock, and to some degree metric units, but civil USAnians tend to kick and scream to the slightest hint about abolishing Imperial units, am/pm or the June 13, 2018 format. It is a repeat of the old "The customer can get the T-Ford in any color he wants, if he wants it in black". A standard date format would be welcomed by most Americans, provided it conincides with the format they have always used. If there is any movement towards ISO 8601 in the USA, or the metric system, or 24h clock (which is implied by ISO 8601), it certainly hasn't reached the news. Obviously, old forms will be used informally in the USA if ISO 8601, metric units etc. are introduced in all formal contexts, just like in Europe. I very rarely, if ever, meet USAnians who say "That's fine with me", but I have met quite a few giving me a stream of arguments why changing anything at all would be a very, very bad idea, even in formal contexts. Europe wants it, USA does not want it, even if "allowed" to use the old formats in informal speech and texts. If you think that the civil society in the USA is ready to embrace ISO 8601 and its 24h clock, and maybe metric units as well, I am cur
Actually, when it comes to dates the US population is VERY consistent: I have NEVER heard anyone say "I was born the seventeenth of May, 1976." An American would say "I was born May 17, 1976" which is also the way the date is written only using numbers instead "05/17/1976". We read numbers left-to-right, as well: 457 is "four hundred fifty seven" not "four hundred seven and fifty" as some European languages would have it (German). The USA has attempted to implement metric several times. Weather forecasts have tried converting to Celsius; however, Americans realize the worthlessness of a system where 20 degrees might require a light jacket but 25 is t-shirt weather: the granularity is insufficient. Liquid has made substantial progress primarily due to two-liter bottles of soda; however, gasoline and milk tend to be sold in gallons. In reality, any unit is fine to simply compare prices: we have accepted gallons. Distance conversion is economically unworkable: all of our traffic signs for distances, exits, etc. are miles. Such conversion would cost a fortune, and accomplish what? If the proposal is that the USA should convert to better facilitate visitors from foreign countries, I would suggest Europe should post mileage and Fahrenheit temperature because I suspect more Americans visit Europe than vice versa. Dates should be YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS using twenty four hour time. Then we just have to argue whether that is local time or UTC.
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My final comment, with apology. CodeProject/Internet playing up, hence the double replies.
Sorry to disappoint you. I have travelled widely, all over the world. My wife is an "Anglophile" of the first order and magnitude. I have met "Brits" in London, Bermuda, and Hong Kong and the United States. I brought in New Year 1970 getting drunk in Hong Kong with British soldiers (and yes they drank me under the table, and out the door). They were the exceptions to the rule which I mentioned earlier. While my comments were partially "Tongue in cheek" and meant to get a rise out of you, which they apparently did, (did I mention I am 1/2 Irish?:cool:), I assure you there is a very large nugget of truth in them. And I stand firmly by my earlier comments. The fact that you replied by lecturing me about judging a nationality based on an assumption that I had not met many British people, just tends to prove my remarks about arrogance and pomposity. :omg: I am sure we could become great friends, given the chance. I sincerely apologize for any hurt feelings I may have caused you. Why, I have had Scotties and Westies as pets for 40 years, or so! BTW: I openly admit to being quite arrogant and pompous myself. :laugh: In fact I am rather proud of it. In any event, Us old guys (Are you really older than me? I thought I was the only one still working in the business at my age) should stick together, not argue. There IS still that Irish, English thing, I guess.... Well Toodles for now.....
It's a random chance universe and we are all just riding waves of probability...
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Some of it was profiteering, yes - but a lot was behind the scenes and wasn't. I spent a lot of time, effort, (and money) in late 90's making sure that all the systems in company I had just joined as Technical Manager (i.e. responsible for everything more complicated than a mains plug) were going to work on Jan 1st 2000, and replacing those that wouldn't. And that meant exhaustive testing on the Unix box that ran the company accounts (Accounts software: fail. Accounts system OS: fail. Accounts system hardware: Oh :Elephant:, Oh :Elephant:, Oh :Elephant:, fail, fail, fail. Can I get it back up by Monday?) followed by new software selection, implementation, data transfer, training, and parallel running as well as new software to produce management accounts summaries in a format they could understand. The reason very little failed on Jan 1 worldwide was that a huge amount of effort went into making sure they wouldn't ... :laugh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
As I recall, a number of other non-year-2000 bugs were discovered and resolved too.
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Actually, when it comes to dates the US population is VERY consistent: I have NEVER heard anyone say "I was born the seventeenth of May, 1976." An American would say "I was born May 17, 1976" which is also the way the date is written only using numbers instead "05/17/1976". We read numbers left-to-right, as well: 457 is "four hundred fifty seven" not "four hundred seven and fifty" as some European languages would have it (German). The USA has attempted to implement metric several times. Weather forecasts have tried converting to Celsius; however, Americans realize the worthlessness of a system where 20 degrees might require a light jacket but 25 is t-shirt weather: the granularity is insufficient. Liquid has made substantial progress primarily due to two-liter bottles of soda; however, gasoline and milk tend to be sold in gallons. In reality, any unit is fine to simply compare prices: we have accepted gallons. Distance conversion is economically unworkable: all of our traffic signs for distances, exits, etc. are miles. Such conversion would cost a fortune, and accomplish what? If the proposal is that the USA should convert to better facilitate visitors from foreign countries, I would suggest Europe should post mileage and Fahrenheit temperature because I suspect more Americans visit Europe than vice versa. Dates should be YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS using twenty four hour time. Then we just have to argue whether that is local time or UTC.
Greg Lovekamp wrote:
Americans realize the worthlessness of a system where 20 degrees might require a light jacket but 25 is t-shirt weather: the granularity is insufficient.
Funny how often this about granularity comes up in the C/F discussion, and almost never in other cases! I have tried to point out to USAians the finer granularity of km over miles (the difference is in the same range as F vs C); it doesn't stick. I have pointer out the lack of granularity of the US dollar compared to numerous other currencies (in particual before the Euro was introduced), and the USAinas protest: But we have got cents! Sure you have. And I have heard US weather forcasts claiming that there is a 57.14 percent chance of rain tomorrow (I am serious! Two fractional digits in a percentage of probability), so you sure can handle decimals! If you really need four digits precision in the chance of rain, then you certainly could handle fractional degrees as well. All my electronic thermometers (I've got at least six or eight) can be switched to F degrees, and they all have a resolution of 0.1 F. If whole F-degrees were sufficient, there should be no need for any fractional part! Here in Norway, we often refer to half-degrees (it is twenty and a half outside right now), and we always did. That is better resolution than whole F degrees. Regardless: The level raise of the mercury or blue-colored spirit column, or movement of the arrow, is exactly the same for a given temprature change; the difference lies only in the distance between the tick marks next to it. And then: Set two cheap thermometers (of two different makes) side by side, and after they have stabilized, compare the reading. They may differ by far more than even a centigrade! (More expensive, newer thermometers may be more exact, but not the ten and twenty year olds you find around in your parent's house). Maybe they are fairly stable, the one always showing 70F while the other shows 68F, but you don't know which corresponds to the weather forecast predictions. Furthermore: I have never met any person who can tell if the air is 68F or 69F, without any refernce point or thermometer. (If that was a common ability, why would we need thermometers to tell us what whe can feel anyway?) Wind, humidity and the temperature in the envionment we came from makes far more change than a couple of degrees. Actually, this "granulatity" argument for F-degrees is rather artificial; you don't really need or make u
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Whichever one we're using, that's the right one. The rest of y'all can adjust. :-D
Sometimes the true reward for completing a task is not the money, but instead the satisfaction of a job well done. But it's usually the money.
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Whichever one we're using, that's the right one. The rest of y'all can adjust. :-D
Sometimes the true reward for completing a task is not the money, but instead the satisfaction of a job well done. But it's usually the money.
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Right - because they don't follow the standards you prefer. Silly person! China still doesn't have an alphabetic language and working on changing that would be time better spent (although they've had civil wars over that in the past). Let me remind you that the US use of 'ounces' is better for computers. 1 oz = base unit = 8 drams 4 oz = gil 8 oz = cup 16 oz = pint 32 oz = quart 128 oz = gallon All powers of two - perfectly represented in binary. Perhaps you ought to get over counting on your fingers and trash that roundoff-error-prone metric system.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Except in scientific calculations, base 10 is the way to go. That goes even as far as the US scientific community using the one and only worldwide base 10 system, namely SI/metric, because it is objectively superior to the imperial system. As for "better for computers", your claim works only as far as integers reach and in scientific (or pretty much any real-world) calculations, we need floating points and then the advantage is out of the window as you can't just shift the register to convert from cup to oz, you have to do proper calculations with the bit pattern. So, no. Just no. As for China, so what? We're talking measurement systems here, not languages. Although one could argue that English already is the worldwide standard language and China is indeed slow to catch up. Which reminds me, on some other forum, I see Chinese people ranting about them having to learn English instead of the ROW having to learn Chinese. Let's be real here, the topic isn't even about Chinese being a better or worse universal language than English, the topic is that we aren't on a green field here, there's tons (literally, as in "printed paper" and figuratively as in "plain and simple loads of stuff written") English research material and technical documentation out there and having to rewrite/translate everything in Chinese simply isn't viable. My personal gripe is the date format, even in Germany, where I live. The ISO 8601 date format is objectively superior to Germany's dd.mm.yyyy, but that doesn't mean people are using it. Although, there's light through the clouds, the ISO 8601 date format was crowned as officially accepted on official government forms. Now I'm just waiting for everyone else to catch up.
