Useless or just Obsolete?
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Well, I started my working life with an apprenticeship (my choice). Set me up in a far more practical way than a degree (which I took later) and I got paid whilst I was doing it! I don't think they have those sorts of apprenticeships any more (which included one year at college learning theory and history). If it all went tits up, I could go back and do that work and, sometimes, I miss it. But I agree, not everyone is suited to going to university and it shouldn't be the default path - a path where you end up with a piece of paper and a debt mountain. The only way to differentiate yourself is to go on and take a masters or phd. My nephew just got his masters and is now working in a bar!) A degree, of itself, does not mean you're smart. Or employable.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer. The End
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Foothill wrote:
To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is.
Personally I'd say a university degree might help someone get a higher-paying job quicker, but ultimately how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place? Regardless of the degree, if you're any good, eventually you will make good money.
I know that talent throws all assumptions out the window :-D. I read an article some years back about college degree return on investment. It put degrees from MIT and CalTech at the top. The school's are the two costliest to attend but they also provide a much higher starting pay. This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals. I wish I could still find that article.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
100% yes at least with STEM careers. Nearly every HR company filters on degree first so without one you won't even get eyes on your resume/CV. You're up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants and they can't read every application. Even if you get through, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Consider that companies don't necessarily want "the best." They want the safest choice that can get the job done. Degree = safety (to some extent). No degree = risk. As much as I despise this system, that's how it is. I've gotten to about eight final interviews over the past 2-ish years, some for senior positions, and when I don't get a call I always reach out to whoever my HR contact was to ask "What could have strengthened my candidacy in the final steps of the process?" The couple responses I've gotten were a degree. Which is why I'm currently finishing my degree so I can land a decent job. As far as apprenticeship vs degree, I like the middle-ground. I have a friend that is a lineman (works on power lines, transformers, etc). The way they do it is basically take a 4-year degree, strip out all the unrelated classes, then you do both schooling and an apprenticeship for those years. I believe the first year is just schooling but apprentices also get paid a fair wage (it isn't free labor like many CS/SE internships). After the schooling, you'll still be an apprentice until your mentor signs off that you're ready to go at it on your own. Side Note: Nearly all those interviews I've landed the company used a test project to filter candidates which is why I imagine I made it into the process without a degree. Many companies don't bother doing this. Also I can only speak to the US.
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And all you will hear is: "How do you get WiFi on this thing?" "Where's facebook?" "When I swipe left, nothing happens." :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Foothill wrote:
To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is.
Personally I'd say a university degree might help someone get a higher-paying job quicker, but ultimately how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place? Regardless of the degree, if you're any good, eventually you will make good money.
dandy72 wrote:
how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place
My degree cost me £0 :laugh: As for the thread in general, these types of threads always elicit the same two reactions; "I didn't get a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know without a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known with a degree is rubbish." "I have a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know with a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known without a degree is rubbish."
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
The old ways are the best ways. You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts, or the world otherwise falls into anarchy. The vehicles you see in Mad Max don't fix themselves, after all. Abandon this knowledge at your own peril.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time
Yes! I had the opportunity to work with youngsters (20-25 years younger than me, and I'm from 1972), who had only a bunch of courses... Even they are the best quality, they lack the solid foundation that a good degree gives you. And that lack of foundation makes the bad dengourous and the good frustrated (first hand experience wit them)...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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Forogar wrote:
Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
The old ways are the best ways. You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts, or the world otherwise falls into anarchy. The vehicles you see in Mad Max don't fix themselves, after all. Abandon this knowledge at your own peril.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
dandy72 wrote:
how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place
My degree cost me £0 :laugh: As for the thread in general, these types of threads always elicit the same two reactions; "I didn't get a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know without a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known with a degree is rubbish." "I have a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know with a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known without a degree is rubbish."
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I know that talent throws all assumptions out the window :-D. I read an article some years back about college degree return on investment. It put degrees from MIT and CalTech at the top. The school's are the two costliest to attend but they also provide a much higher starting pay. This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals. I wish I could still find that article.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Good post! IMHO a PhD is for people whose career path is academia and may actually hurt an applicant whose career path is only the public sector. A problem I have found in my career is that having more education and experience than management can create a rough relationship, because management does not want someone that can do their job or is superior to them. An internship, BS, and a few certs should be enough to get in the door for a programming career. And then if you want the MS or more, let the employer pay for it. I would think that getting in the door early is better than spending many years and monies on academia, but a proper cost benefit analysis on career path and ambitions should be considered before making judgements and decisions. If I were younger and still climbing the corporate ladder, I'd still recommend a MS. My employer paid for around half of it and my half paid for itself very quickly. The problem solving skills I obtained has helped out in my life and should continue throughout.
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Forogar wrote:
Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
The old ways are the best ways. You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts, or the world otherwise falls into anarchy. The vehicles you see in Mad Max don't fix themselves, after all. Abandon this knowledge at your own peril.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts
Argument for argument's sake: Would that knowledge be useful with your fuel-injected Mustang? Or would you immediately have to trash that and retrofit it with a carburetor for some reason?
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
I would say it depends on what you want to do with your working life. If only making money is your goal, getting a high level degrees may not worth it. I would recommend at least bachelor's degree. For 30+ years, I've worked with developers with at least completed a Data Structure course and basic Database Design Principle(dev-A) and developers whom are self tough (dev-B). Provided that both groups are actively practicing their skills. When developing Line of Business (LOB) application where the tools and requirements are well defined, either group can deliver successfully. It is only when the goal is gray and the tools is not readily available that requirements is not clear where some R&D is needed, then the group dev-A really can come through (in fact the higher the education, the better). With a degree without practicing is worst that self tough when comes to coding. At least the self tough knows how to code. I have a brother who had a master degree in Software Engineering but can't write a simple hello world program. If you ever plan to work for government in any research facility, a degree is a must have, the higher the more value it is.
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I would say it depends on what you want to do with your working life. If only making money is your goal, getting a high level degrees may not worth it. I would recommend at least bachelor's degree. For 30+ years, I've worked with developers with at least completed a Data Structure course and basic Database Design Principle(dev-A) and developers whom are self tough (dev-B). Provided that both groups are actively practicing their skills. When developing Line of Business (LOB) application where the tools and requirements are well defined, either group can deliver successfully. It is only when the goal is gray and the tools is not readily available that requirements is not clear where some R&D is needed, then the group dev-A really can come through (in fact the higher the education, the better). With a degree without practicing is worst that self tough when comes to coding. At least the self tough knows how to code. I have a brother who had a master degree in Software Engineering but can't write a simple hello world program. If you ever plan to work for government in any research facility, a degree is a must have, the higher the more value it is.
I agree with all your points and have experienced almost the same scenarios. FYI: Just to help out your otherwise excellent English, I assume that by "self tough" you meant "self-taught".
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts
Argument for argument's sake: Would that knowledge be useful with your fuel-injected Mustang? Or would you immediately have to trash that and retrofit it with a carburetor for some reason?
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So, you know how to change a wagon wheel do ya?
Actually, I do. That's part of the benefit of spending part of your childhood on a working farm.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Actually, I do. That's part of the benefit of spending part of your childhood on a working farm.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
And all you will hear is: "How do you get WiFi on this thing?" "Where's facebook?" "When I swipe left, nothing happens." :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Nah, swiping left still works...that's how you move the beads :)
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A CS degree, is 100% not necessary to be a successful and talented software engineer, and hasn't been for years. I find the degree to be as useful as a 5-inch bolt in the skull. Oh, and by the way, doctors these days don't drill holes in the skull cap to release evil spirits...at least I hope not. My point - keep up with the times, or get a new job.
Good ole' trepanation... :) Ancient Surgery Makes Comeback - ABC News[^]
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Damn it to hell John Wayne slayer!!! I was trying to make a point and you completely ruined it with your vast life experience. :)
I'm old. I know stuff. :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
