Useless or just Obsolete?
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
In my humble opinion, the degree is a certification that you know the basics and it gets your foot in the door. The real learning starts when you get into a shop and start working with people who have been doing it for years. This is where you learn how the development work is really done and the processes used, akin to an apprenticeship. I admit, I'm an entirely self-taught developer with no degree.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money
No.
Forogar wrote:
or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
Yes. And that goes for just about every career choice. I'm still debating whether it's a good thing for quacks doctors to have degrees.
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
Useless or just Obsolete?
I'd like to think I'm both! ;P I'm not sure about Masters or PhDs but good old BS degrees in Computer Science are well worth the time, money and effort. Is it perfect? No. Does it weed out all the idiots? No. But before you throw out the baby with the bath water think of all the times your idiot neighbor said "Little Johnny is really good with computers*, he wants to get a job writing computer games!" *Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
I think a common problem people have when considering college is the idea that college is there to teach you a skill. It's not. College teaches to you learn. You might acquire some entry-level skill set related to some career path, but, as you pointed out, as soon as the ink on the diploma is dry the skills you learned are out of date. Successful people come out of college with the skills to do research, collate that data into useful information, communicate that to others, and then use it to solve problems. From a computer science perspective, you might acquire the ability to code in any number of languages, and to leverage a host of tools to do your job, but HOW you learn that how successful you are at acquiring that knowledge is a direct product of learning to learn.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is. Everything makes sense in someone's mind. Ya can't fix stupid.
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I think a common problem people have when considering college is the idea that college is there to teach you a skill. It's not. College teaches to you learn. You might acquire some entry-level skill set related to some career path, but, as you pointed out, as soon as the ink on the diploma is dry the skills you learned are out of date. Successful people come out of college with the skills to do research, collate that data into useful information, communicate that to others, and then use it to solve problems. From a computer science perspective, you might acquire the ability to code in any number of languages, and to leverage a host of tools to do your job, but HOW you learn that how successful you are at acquiring that knowledge is a direct product of learning to learn.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is. Everything makes sense in someone's mind. Ya can't fix stupid.
Kevin Marois wrote:
College teaches to you learn.
You'd think it should. I've seen too many who have degrees and would starve to death trying to teach themselves to use a can opener. Some people treat the experience like it's the end-all, be-all of knowledge.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
Kevin Marois wrote:
College teaches to you learn.
You'd think it should. I've seen too many who have degrees and would starve to death trying to teach themselves to use a can opener. Some people treat the experience like it's the end-all, be-all of knowledge.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave KreskowiakCollege sure doesn't teach common sense.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is. Everything makes sense in someone's mind. Ya can't fix stupid.
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Forogar wrote:
this is the minimal but focused education I was referring to
Actually, a physician I use admitted that it would be just as useful as medical school to just work with a practicing physician for some years - almost everything ends up being experienced-based. They take their best guess - and are occasionally correct. It's almost completely experiential. The real medical breakthroughs are done by scientists, not MDs. For REAL sciences, chemistry and physics, for example, there's a great deal of background material that is too abstract to learn by watching. Nonetheless, for earning a doctorate, one has to actually do the stuff - because the only way to learn how to do research is . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . to do it. So - going back to coding - a large number of the best coders (take a poll, here) are self-taught. The big advantage they have is they love it and are driven (endorphins?). Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you
That is a very unfair argument! Q&A hosts mostly the idjits who are too lazy to do the basic research required. The minimal number of good questions are from the potentially competent coders!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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I'm old. I know stuff. :)
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I'm old. I know stuff.
Snaffled to sig!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Forogar wrote:
Useless or just Obsolete?
I'd like to think I'm both! ;P I'm not sure about Masters or PhDs but good old BS degrees in Computer Science are well worth the time, money and effort. Is it perfect? No. Does it weed out all the idiots? No. But before you throw out the baby with the bath water think of all the times your idiot neighbor said "Little Johnny is really good with computers*, he wants to get a job writing computer games!" *Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
*Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
A skill I highly doubt you have.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Knowledge gets outdated...the syllabus should be updated with time...if people stopped getting degrees and doing research America would not be in this unique position it was in the world arena .Considering the way its going for profit only and screwing its own country men with job losses and student loans and debt... well its up to trump to make America great again and save the world from another disaster.
Caveat Emptor. "Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
*Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
A skill I highly doubt you have.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
That's what grandkids are for...
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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That's what grandkids are for...
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
That's what grandkids are for...
I'm not there yet, so I get the kids to do that stuff.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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I think a common problem people have when considering college is the idea that college is there to teach you a skill. It's not. College teaches to you learn. You might acquire some entry-level skill set related to some career path, but, as you pointed out, as soon as the ink on the diploma is dry the skills you learned are out of date. Successful people come out of college with the skills to do research, collate that data into useful information, communicate that to others, and then use it to solve problems. From a computer science perspective, you might acquire the ability to code in any number of languages, and to leverage a host of tools to do your job, but HOW you learn that how successful you are at acquiring that knowledge is a direct product of learning to learn.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is. Everything makes sense in someone's mind. Ya can't fix stupid.
Kevin Marois wrote:
College teaches to you learn.
Fascinating how things are different around different parts of the world... We learned to learn in the elementary/primary school (up to 14), since then it is real knowledge... Granted - you have no real-life experience after college, but you should have a lot of knowledge to help to do things in real environment... If the college is any decent, you not learning things from zero with your first job, but learning how to implement theory in real-life situations - and that called experience... An other aspect of good college is that you understand how knowledge is temporary and changing and you will pursue it even after 50 years you left... There are some, who fit the self-building process, but they are few (and they are good because they build themselves bottom-up). Most who has no a solid base are rarely become any good...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
I don't think the knowledge I gained in my degree course back in 1988 was fantastically useful however there'e the degree and there's going to university and the two are not always separate. I would say that going to university can be useful - in my case my third year was spent working as a COBOL programmer so it was my first real job and I got a sense of what I didn't want to do. I think if I had not gone to university I would not have gained to confidence to take on perhaps more demanding job roles. On the specific topic of degrees - I think if one wants to become a developer it's probably better to spend the money educating yourself for three years as well as participating in online communities and writing and publishing software. I don't think degrees necessarily prepare people for the work environment.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Getting a degree is worth it for 2 reasons. 1. You learn to learn, that alone is a huge boon. 2. Stuff like how a linked list or a B+-tree works internally never gets old. Those theoretical concepts are still very much relevant today. You should either refrain from learning too-particular things (that was my prof's aporach) or distill the essense out of particular knowledge to apply it to other things running on the same principles. Example: While we can agree that a modern CPU is orders of magnitude more complex, than the venerable 8080, the basic concepts are still the same. I personally am a fan of learning actually (at that time) useful things as learning theory without any grounding in reality isn't the way my brain works, but distill the essense to apply it to new fields. And let's be real, truly new fields are few far and between. The most progress computer science has been having for half a century is old wine in new (way fancier and bigger) bottles.
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And all you will hear is: "How do you get WiFi on this thing?" "Where's facebook?" "When I swipe left, nothing happens." :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
There would be nothing to swipe since the phones were all dead.
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things. Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing. Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines. A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages. All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days. Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work. Hah! Like any of that would really happen! :wtf: For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters :cool:, MI5 :suss:, chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong X| , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! :~ My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan. Anyway, finally to the question... Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
The classical way of learning a craft was to become an apprentice, after a few years passing a practical test to be entitled a Journeyman, and maybe some years later demonstrating that you can manage a complete work task where you have do demonstrate a large number of skills, to become a Master. In modern Norwegian education, that is still the way to become a craftsman, but the practical training is now interspersed with classroom lessons where you learn not only what to do, but why to do it. Theory with a very practical orientation. And, knowing both what to do and why is a very good combination. Those who have done all of their learning in a classroom may know the "why"s better, but may be clueless about the "what". Lately, the tradidional classroom teaching of computer science has, here in Norway, been supplemented with a program similar to the old crafts learning: You are hired at a software house as an apprentice, working with a skilled programmer, but spending a few hours every week taking classes at a local college to learn the necessary "why"s. After a few years, you may go through a public exam to become a "bachelor" - the old "journeyman" term is not used any more, but that's just another name for the same thing. This kind of education is so new that I am not sure if anyone has gone further to become a Master though practical work (supplemented by practical theory). I am very much in favor of this educational system. We may need purely theoretical education as well, but as a supplement to that (and a major one!), I think it is very valuable.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you
That is a very unfair argument! Q&A hosts mostly the idjits who are too lazy to do the basic research required. The minimal number of good questions are from the potentially competent coders!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Well - we've had work done by (youngish) contractors (outsourced). I'll be generous and call it shyte. The good-to-great coders are going to be inspired. Self-taught, even if in the CS courses, because they just can't help themselves. Taking the course - with the idea of it being a lucrative vocation "with a future" - is only producing a bunch of drones who actually could be replace by software that rights software.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Forogar wrote:
Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time
Yes! I had the opportunity to work with youngsters (20-25 years younger than me, and I'm from 1972), who had only a bunch of courses... Even they are the best quality, they lack the solid foundation that a good degree gives you. And that lack of foundation makes the bad dengourous and the good frustrated (first hand experience wit them)...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
I've worked with folks who had 15-20 years experience, yet lacked a basic understanding of how a database works, nor understood why coding for efficient execution matters when you have 100,000 concurrent users.
