Self Winding Universe?
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I always wanted to go on Mastermind and do the Monty Python thing: Magnus: Your specialist subject? Me: The Bleeding Obvious. It's easy to give credence what people say in magazines and blogs, but it's usually better to spend a few moments working it out for yourself.
True. But do not assume all have the same capability to work it out for themselves. In leiu of that and with a desire to play the intellectual game, the path of least resistance is to accept what seems right, or worse, what appeals emotionally. Many minds of mush out there.
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So I looked up the guy and his book (in the Google universe). What is Real? | Not Even Wrong[^] - This popped up near the top of the list. It seems to me that it is, in rather simple terms, a disagreement as to the basis set to be correctly used to describe the universe. (there is an author's reply down the page). What is real - not obviously a part of what I used when starting this. Whatever is real, it does tend towards disorder as the result of any action that can be considered spontaneous. Spontaneous meaning, in this context, what will happen to something's state if it were to change to a "more relaxed and natural state" - for example - you'd be more stable if you fell down flat than if you were to remain standing. I'm thus considering what happens when everything everywhere has fallen. Is that state, itself, a contradiction? Be a bit more a philosopher.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
"When everything everywhere has fallen" may be a contradiction. Fallen implies it fell somewhere, to some gravitational attractor, like a star. When a star loses energy, gravity may completely take over, resulting in a massive explosion, which may eject matter and start anew, or a black hole. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, speculate as we may about the true nature of this universe (or multiverses or whatever) we do not (and may never) know what is real.
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Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
The problem with your argument is that on a large scale thermodynamics moves energy from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration. Voids are low concentrations of energy whereas stars have high concentrations of energy around them. This means that the energy produced by stars, and thus galaxies and galaxy clusters will eventually move into the Voids. The gravitational energy will of course continue to pull stars into an ever tighter matter as the weak and strong nuclear forces decay, so the probability of the universe ever being completely homogenous at the quantum level is zero.
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Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
The formation of planets and rise of intelligent life seems to me to be a violation of entropy.
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The formation of planets and rise of intelligent life seems to me to be a violation of entropy.
Any thing can happen in a truly chaotic path - local order is, in fact, required for a truly chaotic system.* Hence - planets, life, &etc. * at least along the way to wherever it's headed.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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The problem with your argument is that on a large scale thermodynamics moves energy from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration. Voids are low concentrations of energy whereas stars have high concentrations of energy around them. This means that the energy produced by stars, and thus galaxies and galaxy clusters will eventually move into the Voids. The gravitational energy will of course continue to pull stars into an ever tighter matter as the weak and strong nuclear forces decay, so the probability of the universe ever being completely homogenous at the quantum level is zero.
obermd wrote:
The problem with your argument is that on a large scale thermodynamics moves energy from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration.
Thermodynamics tends to move things from higher energy states to lower energy states. Concentration (of stuff), although a factor, is not the only consideration - and may not even be one. The Gibbs Free Energy, which is basically the traffic controller for thermodynamic (which way does something go) includes both thermal and entropy components. They can pull together or in opposing directions for a given event. Expand your view to the surroundings and the entropy has increased and that is a dispersive phenomenon. Gravity is magic! but, I'd conjecture that energy is emitted when two object coalesce do to gravitational forces. Isn't there something to that effect when an object crosses the event horizon of a black hole? Also, don't black holes emit Hawkings radiation (per an earlier post) and they eventually wither away into total dispersion as energy?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Sorry, the universe could approach total chaos as a limit. Areas of orgnization could evaporate. Or the expansion of space-time could grow exponentially, causing the universe to pop like a soap bubble, also causing the universe to approach chaos as a limit.
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That works surprisingly well: you can't tell if the milk is OK or off until you pour it into the tea or coffee...
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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If you believe that energy and matter cannot be destroyed (or created), only changed in form then what does entropy do with it all? Does it have a big attic somewhere to put all this stuff? If so, does it get the stuff out again once it is full and that's where the cyclical universe theory comes from? ;P
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Well, like a good author who once wrote: “Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.” My guess is that somewhere between that, and being put away by "top men.(tm)" :)
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Doesn't always work. There is a point at which it's almost off but doesn't smell - putting it in tea or coffee will instantly "curdle" it and form "needles" which means the cup has to be poured down the sink and restarted. Schrodinger's Milk!
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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That works surprisingly well: you can't tell if the milk is OK or off until you pour it into the tea or coffee...
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
A better test would be to pour some of it into the cat, since they'll turn their nose up at it if it's the tiniest bit off.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
A better test would be to pour some of it into the cat, since they'll turn their nose up at it if it's the tiniest bit off.
Software Zen:
delete this;That's not a good test: like most adults cats he's a bit lactose intolerant (they lose the ability to absorb it when their digestive system changes while weaning). And guess who gets to clean up cat puke?
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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That's not a good test: like most adults cats he's a bit lactose intolerant (they lose the ability to absorb it when their digestive system changes while weaning). And guess who gets to clean up cat puke?
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
I didn't say it was a particularly tidy test, just an accurate one... :laugh: I have a senior cat who does exactly as you describe. She's also known for producing hair balls of greater size than her own body weight X| .
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It seems that life is anti-entropy. Whether it's an amoeba or a zebra, its always straining like hell against entropy to organize the physical world to perpetuate itself. It seems that if life figures out how to sweep across the universe faster than entropy, life could theoretically get the upper hand. If entropy winning is an ever expanding universe, getting lonelier and lonelier, what is life winning? Puppies, kittens & everyone singing Kum ba yah? Alas, it seems that either to the exclusion of the other is universal demise. With a universal balance between entropy and life, there could exist simultaneously pockets of chaos and clusters of kittens. Maybe equilibrium between them should be our hope?
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If you believe that energy and matter cannot be destroyed (or created), only changed in form then what does entropy do with it all? Does it have a big attic somewhere to put all this stuff? If so, does it get the stuff out again once it is full and that's where the cyclical universe theory comes from? ;P
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
For those of you that are not married, I offer my example of an explanation of entropy and matter being transformed from one state to another. Those of you that are married, regardless of how long, will understand. Entropy occurs when the balance on your credit cards gradually erode, the balances moving ever so close to extinction. The currency, associated with that credit card, is transformed into shoes, dresses, jewelry, etc. Fortunately, the cycle begins over each month. Mr. Einstein would have made this explanation way to complicated. Hopefully, I've simplified it.
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Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
OK, not at the Universe level, but all the matter speeding from galaxies away from them eventually coalesce to the gravity of nearby influences creating new BIG BANGs. Einstein's greatest personal discovery was that matter and energy cannot be either created or destroyed. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Cthulu discovered that the whole universe was his...
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Just a thought, still in process of being processed, but I was considering the possibility that the universe cannot "run down" - i.e., be completely consumed by entropy. Here's the basic thought: one could divide the universe into two types of regions: the 'void' and regions of content randomly dispersed throughout the void. Now, let's consider all of the regions of content. If all of them (i.e., all of existence) reached a final state of chaos then the whole of it would no longer have random content between the void - and thus their very existence in a state of total chaos is a contradiction. It would be incumbent upon existence to essentially become less chaotic in arbitrary local regions in order for the whole of existence to remain truly chaotic: it must not have the content of all places 'with stuff' be the same and thus, in a form of homogeneity. Now I'm not set on fully believing in this, yet, but it would essentially require that the universe's tendency towards chaos requires it to create local order (rewind) in order to become chaotic (contradiction, again?). A possible mechanism to undo chaos may be a reversal of local time, but that's somewhat shooting form the hip based on a conjecture and hand waving.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Local order for the sake of global entropy isn't anything new. Stars for example, are a more ordered system than thin gas stretched out throughout space, but stars actively increase the entropy by burning gas (as heat energy has the highest entropy of them all). Even life works the same way, locally, a living cell is more ordered than some primordial soup but by converting energy, life helps greatly increasing entropy. And as experience has shown, the more complex life gets, the more entropy gets generated (industrialization has increased the entropy output like nothing else before it).
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Local order for the sake of global entropy isn't anything new. Stars for example, are a more ordered system than thin gas stretched out throughout space, but stars actively increase the entropy by burning gas (as heat energy has the highest entropy of them all). Even life works the same way, locally, a living cell is more ordered than some primordial soup but by converting energy, life helps greatly increasing entropy. And as experience has shown, the more complex life gets, the more entropy gets generated (industrialization has increased the entropy output like nothing else before it).
Again (and not intending to sound rude!) - I know what entropy is and how it "works" - it is, in fact, what gives a direction to time if you consider it. And studied enough thermodynamics to be pretty damn familiar with it, even quantitatively, as it the -T△S component in the Gibbs free energy. None of that, along with your observations are the point. Restated: if the universe reaches a point where all content is in a total state of entropy, that state, itself, has lost a component of randomness as there is no variation in the state. Thus, for entropy to continue (a poor choice of words) some component(s) must always maintain a difference from a state of total entropy. My hypothesis, then, is that it could be a spontaneous change of state to any component, reducing it from a state of total entropy as it strives toward universal entropy (a logical contradiction?) which is, in a sense, a local rewind. Taken a step further - which assumes some correctness in my hypothesis, one mechanism for this could be a local reverse in the direction of time . . . at least from the point of view of an outside observer. Ironically, the decrease in entropy, being potentially spontaneous, is still following its local time flow in a positive direction. Let yourself then dream: we could be oscillating, irregularly, in a time stream without direction from an outside observation (outside of time, that is!) and things keep happening, unhappening, and the like. Inside this stream, however, we'd never notice.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Again (and not intending to sound rude!) - I know what entropy is and how it "works" - it is, in fact, what gives a direction to time if you consider it. And studied enough thermodynamics to be pretty damn familiar with it, even quantitatively, as it the -T△S component in the Gibbs free energy. None of that, along with your observations are the point. Restated: if the universe reaches a point where all content is in a total state of entropy, that state, itself, has lost a component of randomness as there is no variation in the state. Thus, for entropy to continue (a poor choice of words) some component(s) must always maintain a difference from a state of total entropy. My hypothesis, then, is that it could be a spontaneous change of state to any component, reducing it from a state of total entropy as it strives toward universal entropy (a logical contradiction?) which is, in a sense, a local rewind. Taken a step further - which assumes some correctness in my hypothesis, one mechanism for this could be a local reverse in the direction of time . . . at least from the point of view of an outside observer. Ironically, the decrease in entropy, being potentially spontaneous, is still following its local time flow in a positive direction. Let yourself then dream: we could be oscillating, irregularly, in a time stream without direction from an outside observation (outside of time, that is!) and things keep happening, unhappening, and the like. Inside this stream, however, we'd never notice.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Quantum mechanics dictate that SOMETHING will happen one way or another, on miniscule scales. Even if the universe devolves into a rather monotonous full-entropy-soup, local changes will always exist. That's however rather ordinary physics, scifi stuff like spontaneous reversal of time not included. The reality of CPT symmetry is still not conclusively decided by experiment, but all signs point to it standing.
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Quantum mechanics dictate that SOMETHING will happen one way or another, on miniscule scales. Even if the universe devolves into a rather monotonous full-entropy-soup, local changes will always exist. That's however rather ordinary physics, scifi stuff like spontaneous reversal of time not included. The reality of CPT symmetry is still not conclusively decided by experiment, but all signs point to it standing.
Member 9167057 wrote:
CPT symmetry
Had to look up what that is - but, at least according to the Wikipedia, whatever it is has been found to:
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Efforts during the late 1950s revealed the violation of P-symmetry by phenomena that involve the weak force, and there were well-known violations of C-symmetry as well. For a short time, the CP-symmetry was believed to be preserved by all physical phenomena, but that was later found to be false too, which implied, by CPT invariance, violations of T-symmetry as well.
But you note the idea of a
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monotonous full-entropy-soup,
And my thinking was such a state cannot exist in that it would violate the concept of entropy, itself. At the point where full entropy would be possible, something, somewhere, must be spoiling full entropy - which, expressing with the weakness of language - full entropy can only exist you don't have it. (but is getting rather close) I'll except part of the quantum mechanical rational in that full entropy need only be marred somewhere, statistically, at all times. Schroedinger's cat may (or may not) have had reconcilliation.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
