Managers
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
Nand32 wrote:
Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well?
Any time there was, I made a big problem out of it. I'm paid to do so, and it is unethical not to. As long as he doesn't negatively influence the project, no big deal; but he might become a failure-point for an otherwise succesfull project, dragging the entire team with him. Anything that endangers the project needs to be identified and dealt with, preferably at the start of the project. That's part of the job, isn't it? Being very intelligent and promising is also no alternative to experience. While I agree that one can only gain experience by doing, I'd like to point out that such is done better from a position where one does not lead others.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
AS I previously worked in a large beaurocracy, I learned that :"The cream rises to the top, but sometimes the turds float there faster. Not much you can do. Let the new manager do his thing and offer your help and support. Apparently, the top brass trusts him, so there's nothing to be gained by trying to undercut him, it would just make you appear to be a troublemaker. If yo really can't stand the organization the ultimate cure is to find a different job! In all my years in a beaurocracy, I always had another job offer in my hand and let my bosses know I didn't agree to any shite, I jusdt agreed to do my job and if my job changed without my agreement, then I wouldn't hesitate to leave.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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AS I previously worked in a large beaurocracy, I learned that :"The cream rises to the top, but sometimes the turds float there faster. Not much you can do. Let the new manager do his thing and offer your help and support. Apparently, the top brass trusts him, so there's nothing to be gained by trying to undercut him, it would just make you appear to be a troublemaker. If yo really can't stand the organization the ultimate cure is to find a different job! In all my years in a beaurocracy, I always had another job offer in my hand and let my bosses know I didn't agree to any shite, I jusdt agreed to do my job and if my job changed without my agreement, then I wouldn't hesitate to leave.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Eheh you have your "Dr." now. Congratulations :thumbsup:
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question
Thank you, yes I finally scheduled and complete my Dissertation defense anmd am approved for graduation this month. The best thing that happened was about 40 years ago, my oldest daughter was about 10 months old, but could converse on n adult level, even though she was small and looked like maybe 6 months old. We were in a store, she sitting in the cart me pudshing and a nother couple was following us around and talking between themselves. When we got to the checkout line my daugter leaned forward and told the couple"You shouldn't talk about us like that and my Daddy is smarter than you!" Not another word was said. I guess it's a bummer to be put in your place by a baby!
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
I once had a candid talk with a manager. He said that his job was to "ensure that each team member delivers at least one verifiable deliverable per week, and to make sure that each team member has the required resources for this". Maybe, this is what your manager is trying by saying "get things done".
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Nand32 wrote:
Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well?
Any time there was, I made a big problem out of it. I'm paid to do so, and it is unethical not to. As long as he doesn't negatively influence the project, no big deal; but he might become a failure-point for an otherwise succesfull project, dragging the entire team with him. Anything that endangers the project needs to be identified and dealt with, preferably at the start of the project. That's part of the job, isn't it? Being very intelligent and promising is also no alternative to experience. While I agree that one can only gain experience by doing, I'd like to point out that such is done better from a position where one does not lead others.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Any time there was, I made a big problem out of it. I'm paid to do so, and it is unethical not to.
You are the hero. I'm going after this with all my forces. The boss can keep him employed, but I don't want someone sitting on top and say "complete", when I'm already taking care of it. This is so fake and artificial and de-motivating.
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AS I previously worked in a large beaurocracy, I learned that :"The cream rises to the top, but sometimes the turds float there faster. Not much you can do. Let the new manager do his thing and offer your help and support. Apparently, the top brass trusts him, so there's nothing to be gained by trying to undercut him, it would just make you appear to be a troublemaker. If yo really can't stand the organization the ultimate cure is to find a different job! In all my years in a beaurocracy, I always had another job offer in my hand and let my bosses know I didn't agree to any shite, I jusdt agreed to do my job and if my job changed without my agreement, then I wouldn't hesitate to leave.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
No we are a good pack of developers, leads & an Engineering manager. It's a good unit. The director unaware of what's good for the team, he had assumed a B.school in the mix would help the team further. But it's doing the reverse. Nobody likes it. Bad choice. And this will be conveyed to the boss.
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I once had a candid talk with a manager. He said that his job was to "ensure that each team member delivers at least one verifiable deliverable per week, and to make sure that each team member has the required resources for this". Maybe, this is what your manager is trying by saying "get things done".
Amarnath S wrote:
He said that his job was to "ensure that each team member delivers at least one verifiable deliverable per week, and to make sure that each team member has the required resources for this"
I'm getting on top of the hill and screaming this : All you big bosses, do you see you can very well appoint an Engineering manager for the same purpose? Our EM already does this. I feel completely okay being queried by person with technial background and who knows what he's asking. But when someone who's completely non-technical and doesn't understand a bit about whats in, and sits on your shoulder and chant "Complete" "Complete". It's not gonna work. The ugly scenario is , When I was about to say that we have completed something. This B.school junk rushes in to say , "Guys, lets complete this ASAP". He knows we have completed. But Just to exercise his nonsensical power to direct things. He fakes this type of "driving" commands. This is bullshit. And will not be digested.
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Amarnath S wrote:
He said that his job was to "ensure that each team member delivers at least one verifiable deliverable per week, and to make sure that each team member has the required resources for this"
I'm getting on top of the hill and screaming this : All you big bosses, do you see you can very well appoint an Engineering manager for the same purpose? Our EM already does this. I feel completely okay being queried by person with technial background and who knows what he's asking. But when someone who's completely non-technical and doesn't understand a bit about whats in, and sits on your shoulder and chant "Complete" "Complete". It's not gonna work. The ugly scenario is , When I was about to say that we have completed something. This B.school junk rushes in to say , "Guys, lets complete this ASAP". He knows we have completed. But Just to exercise his nonsensical power to direct things. He fakes this type of "driving" commands. This is bullshit. And will not be digested.
Nand32 wrote:
This B.school junk rushes in to say , "Guys, lets complete this ASAP"
This is not correct. He should adopt a proper Project Management approach, with planning, estimating (including adding appropriate buffers), and then starting the execution. If this is not done, he is to be removed / superseded. I know of a manager who said that "I want it yesterday". This is sheer rubbish.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Any time there was, I made a big problem out of it. I'm paid to do so, and it is unethical not to.
You are the hero. I'm going after this with all my forces. The boss can keep him employed, but I don't want someone sitting on top and say "complete", when I'm already taking care of it. This is so fake and artificial and de-motivating.
Nand32 wrote:
The boss can keep him employed, but I don't want someone sitting on top and say "complete", when I'm already taking care of it.
If you did, people may think he's a success and try another project using the same setup.
Nand32 wrote:
You are the hero.
No, the one who accepts potential trouble to do right is. You're not causing trouble just for fun, you are preventing an inexperienced soldier from killing his troops. Might be a great general one day, but not if he fails on the first job.
Nand32 wrote:
This is so fake and artificial and de-motivating.
I hope he's lazy; that would make it easier then when he is putting in a lot of effort. Good luck :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Non-tech managers are the best kind. They can't make any intelligent suggestions for the project. Learn to answer his management jargon with like jargon. Like all managers, you need to manage him. Suck it up and get on with it. Make sure he sees you as a team player. He will settle down when he has had his say. Maybe you could suggest he provide donuts at the meetings; :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
Saw this several times in the Army excepting we called them 2nd Lieutenants. Their real job was to learn to not get in the way, but nobody explained that ahead of time. This isn’t seen as much in civilian world because unlike the Army, people can quit.
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
Nand32 wrote:
We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him.
Having an engineering manager and a 'manager manager' does seem like overkill. One must wonder why this seemingly superfluous new manager has been hired. What problem did the higher ups perceive there to be? Bear in mind that the problem does not need to be real; it could just be a matter of perception. Does the engineering manager not speak the same (non-technical) language that the higher-ups want to hear? Or could it be that the problem is, as others have suggested, that there was a 'nephew out of work' problem? Or is the company/division/project not performing as influential people expect it to, despite there being no problems that you can see? Does the new manager have pointy hair, by any chance?
Nand32 wrote:
Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop?
Oh no! Not a chance. Dilbert and the PHB explain why: Dilbert Comic Strip on 1994-04-30 | Dilbert by Scott Adams[^] Here are my suggestions for how to proceed: (1) Start looking for a new job. Really, start now. (2) As others have suggested, create contemporaneous logs of all instructions you receive (both directly from the new manager and from your existing managers/supervisors). (3) Keep a log (like a personal timesheet) of all your daily actions, including links to show how your daily work links directly to instructions received.
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Non-tech managers are the best kind. They can't make any intelligent suggestions for the project. Learn to answer his management jargon with like jargon. Like all managers, you need to manage him. Suck it up and get on with it. Make sure he sees you as a team player. He will settle down when he has had his say. Maybe you could suggest he provide donuts at the meetings; :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Nand32 wrote:
We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him.
Having an engineering manager and a 'manager manager' does seem like overkill. One must wonder why this seemingly superfluous new manager has been hired. What problem did the higher ups perceive there to be? Bear in mind that the problem does not need to be real; it could just be a matter of perception. Does the engineering manager not speak the same (non-technical) language that the higher-ups want to hear? Or could it be that the problem is, as others have suggested, that there was a 'nephew out of work' problem? Or is the company/division/project not performing as influential people expect it to, despite there being no problems that you can see? Does the new manager have pointy hair, by any chance?
Nand32 wrote:
Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop?
Oh no! Not a chance. Dilbert and the PHB explain why: Dilbert Comic Strip on 1994-04-30 | Dilbert by Scott Adams[^] Here are my suggestions for how to proceed: (1) Start looking for a new job. Really, start now. (2) As others have suggested, create contemporaneous logs of all instructions you receive (both directly from the new manager and from your existing managers/supervisors). (3) Keep a log (like a personal timesheet) of all your daily actions, including links to show how your daily work links directly to instructions received.
My best guess would be that the Engineering Manager is on the way out; you just do not know it yet. He/She might know it but not be allowed to say it. Or else this new manager might give them the incentive to leave now if that was not the plan before. I have worked at shops where you have project managers and separate HR managers. You tend to float among the project managers, but do all of the HR stuff with your HR manager. That approach made sense as an easy segregation of duties. Many HR managers were also project managers as well. (They were Roles) That does not sound like the case here, but maybe that is where they are heading. You might ask for a clarification of the Roles at play here.
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dandy72 wrote:
Larry the Cable Guy has made a career out of saying practically that.
Gonna check this out :)
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My best guess would be that the Engineering Manager is on the way out; you just do not know it yet. He/She might know it but not be allowed to say it. Or else this new manager might give them the incentive to leave now if that was not the plan before. I have worked at shops where you have project managers and separate HR managers. You tend to float among the project managers, but do all of the HR stuff with your HR manager. That approach made sense as an easy segregation of duties. Many HR managers were also project managers as well. (They were Roles) That does not sound like the case here, but maybe that is where they are heading. You might ask for a clarification of the Roles at play here.
englebart wrote:
My best guess would be that the Engineering Manager is on the way out; you just do not know it yet. He/She might know it but not be allowed to say it. Or else this new manager might give them the incentive to leave now if that was not the plan before.
Sounds very plausible to me.
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh:
I have dealt with bad technical management for a large portion of my 45+ years in the profession. With the exception of a very few people, the majority of such managers are morons. The fact that you have some MBA BS-artist now in your project loop speaks to the stupidity of the people who assigned him in the first place. My advice is to not go above your immediate supervisor's head in any manner unless you cannot critically document the problems this new person is causing. Even then, do not send up any memos to anyone unless you get an approval from the manager you do respect. I have taken on a lot of bad technical managers in my career. They are always there because of office politics. And they will remain there for the most part as a result of the same office politics. As a result, unless you are prepared to risk your own position, move very carefully and slowly in any regard in attempting to get this person removed...
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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How do we deal with the non-tech managers. For no reason, the top boss has hired a B-school grad (Just because he's from a top University) and have handed over the responsibility to "drive" the project. We have never missed a deadline nor there's an issue with execution. We do have an Engineering manager as well. We are all very happy to interact with him. But the new guy talks a lot on the white board and this is quite irritating. He knows nothing about the product but talks with wide mouth as if he's pushing a lot to "get things done". "Get things done" BS. this is one of the worst lines to get into my ears. Do you think I should write to the top boss and ask him be removed out of the loop? He adds no value in the entire chain of things. Do you have the system of dumb folks sitting on top and doing this "getting things done" as well? is this culture going away or not? :doh: