Toe the language line or else
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Me: Product X shouldn't _____ . Fan: But it does. Me: Yes, but it shouldn't. Fan: Of course it should; that's how it was designed. Me: But it shouldn't have been. Fan: It's the paradigm the designer chose. Me: It was a poor choice. Etc. etc. etc. It's been going on for decades and it won't change.
In this case, Rust is still fairly young and has room for for growth. I was just throwing in my two cents on what I felt was holding me back from committing to it. If people don't speak up, no one's going to guess what we want.
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In this case, Rust is still fairly young and has room for for growth. I was just throwing in my two cents on what I felt was holding me back from committing to it. If people don't speak up, no one's going to guess what we want.
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Dean Roddey wrote:
If people don't speak up
Sure, but if the designer/implementer doesn't ask for input (when it will actually help) it's hardly any use (after the fact). As with complaining about some of the features of C. When Walter Bright was designing D (twenty years ago now?), he did ask for input on certain features, and took the feedback of testers into consideration. Yet which language is getting more traction?
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Dean Roddey wrote:
If people don't speak up
Sure, but if the designer/implementer doesn't ask for input (when it will actually help) it's hardly any use (after the fact). As with complaining about some of the features of C. When Walter Bright was designing D (twenty years ago now?), he did ask for input on certain features, and took the feedback of testers into consideration. Yet which language is getting more traction?
Well, that's more to do with the relative heft of the entities behind the two languages, not whether they took feedback or not. And obviously they aren't going to come to my house and have tea with me and ask my my opinion. That's one of the reasonably positive reasons the internet exists. We can make our opinions known publicly. At least when they aren't censored. And I would think that they do actually pay attention to what people think to some extent. They presumably want people to adopt it widely enough to make it more than a niche language, which currently it very much is. And there's nothing wrong with public debate amongst users and potential users, IMO.
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Dean Roddey wrote:
If people don't speak up
Sure, but if the designer/implementer doesn't ask for input (when it will actually help) it's hardly any use (after the fact). As with complaining about some of the features of C. When Walter Bright was designing D (twenty years ago now?), he did ask for input on certain features, and took the feedback of testers into consideration. Yet which language is getting more traction?
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Sure, but if the designer/implementer doesn't ask for input (when it will actually help) it's hardly any use (after the fact).
And even when they ask, there is no certainty that they will use / make something out the given feedback
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I just made a post in the reddit rust section, with my honest critique of the language from the perspective of an experienced C++ developer who has been exploring it. There were a good many responses and a good discussion going on. But presumably it wasn't sufficiently positive, and it just got whacked. I never cease to be amazed at how language fans circle the wagons against any criticism. For a minute there I thought the Rust section might be actually more mature than the C++ one, where punitive down-voting is rampant. But I guess not. That doesn't fill me with an urge to commit to the language.
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I just made a post in the reddit rust section, with my honest critique of the language from the perspective of an experienced C++ developer who has been exploring it. There were a good many responses and a good discussion going on. But presumably it wasn't sufficiently positive, and it just got whacked. I never cease to be amazed at how language fans circle the wagons against any criticism. For a minute there I thought the Rust section might be actually more mature than the C++ one, where punitive down-voting is rampant. But I guess not. That doesn't fill me with an urge to commit to the language.
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At Slant you can add Pros and Cons on a subject like Rust: https://www.slant.co/topics/15430/~compiled-programming-languages[^] As you can see Rust is at position #1 at the moment, but there have not been a lot of votes on the subject yet.
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I just made a post in the reddit rust section, with my honest critique of the language from the perspective of an experienced C++ developer who has been exploring it. There were a good many responses and a good discussion going on. But presumably it wasn't sufficiently positive, and it just got whacked. I never cease to be amazed at how language fans circle the wagons against any criticism. For a minute there I thought the Rust section might be actually more mature than the C++ one, where punitive down-voting is rampant. But I guess not. That doesn't fill me with an urge to commit to the language.
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Dean Roddey wrote:
I just made a post [...] on reddit [...] but [...] wasn't sufficiently positive and it [...] got whacked.
Reddit in a nutshell for any section with a decent number of members. If you present any thoughts or ideas counter to the locally 'accepted truth' you get run out on a rail. Some sections are worse than others but, like Facebook and Twitter, it is a place best avoided.
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I just made a post in the reddit rust section, with my honest critique of the language from the perspective of an experienced C++ developer who has been exploring it. There were a good many responses and a good discussion going on. But presumably it wasn't sufficiently positive, and it just got whacked. I never cease to be amazed at how language fans circle the wagons against any criticism. For a minute there I thought the Rust section might be actually more mature than the C++ one, where punitive down-voting is rampant. But I guess not. That doesn't fill me with an urge to commit to the language.
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Dean Roddey wrote:
I just made a post in the reddit rust section,
That's what you get from straying from the one true path that is unmanaged c++.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Dean Roddey wrote:
I just made a post in the reddit rust section,
That's what you get from straying from the one true path that is unmanaged c++.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Ah, you have seen the light.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
saw the light before I was essentially forced to move to .Net. I spent almost 20 years doing C++ - until the C++ job market dried up.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
saw the light before I was essentially forced to move to .Net. I spent almost 20 years doing C++ - until the C++ job market dried up.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Therein lies the rub. Even though Rust has probably a better chance than average of becoming something other than a niche language, it's still very much one now and putting in the time to learn it is definitely something of a risk. Part of my argument is make it more attractive to the rest of the existing C#/C++/Python/etc... world by supporting real inheritance. Even if you don't believe, as I do, that inheritance is a powerful tool, add it for those folks who know it and know how to use it effectively. There's a big chicken and egg thing with a new language. Until there are jobs for it, people won't dig into it for the most part, but until there's a reasonably deep talent pool, companies won't want to commit to using it. I don't think I've seen a single job posting that included Rust, though I'm sure some are out there, at Mozilla if nothing else. For me, I'm a Windows/C++ guy. That turned out to be possibly the worst combination. Windows is fine, but not C++ on Windows so much. C++ would be somewhat better on Linux. C# I've done a good bit of work with already, but that's sort of doubling down on Windows. I've been playing around with Rust on Linux, sort of killing two brain cells at once. But, in terms of really committing to Rust enough to really learn it and start to do serious work in it, I dunno if that's warranted. Both for reasons of lack of maturity of the language and tools and ecosystem, and because of the decisions made in its creation. It has some really interesting ideas, but it has some glaring holes.
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Therein lies the rub. Even though Rust has probably a better chance than average of becoming something other than a niche language, it's still very much one now and putting in the time to learn it is definitely something of a risk. Part of my argument is make it more attractive to the rest of the existing C#/C++/Python/etc... world by supporting real inheritance. Even if you don't believe, as I do, that inheritance is a powerful tool, add it for those folks who know it and know how to use it effectively. There's a big chicken and egg thing with a new language. Until there are jobs for it, people won't dig into it for the most part, but until there's a reasonably deep talent pool, companies won't want to commit to using it. I don't think I've seen a single job posting that included Rust, though I'm sure some are out there, at Mozilla if nothing else. For me, I'm a Windows/C++ guy. That turned out to be possibly the worst combination. Windows is fine, but not C++ on Windows so much. C++ would be somewhat better on Linux. C# I've done a good bit of work with already, but that's sort of doubling down on Windows. I've been playing around with Rust on Linux, sort of killing two brain cells at once. But, in terms of really committing to Rust enough to really learn it and start to do serious work in it, I dunno if that's warranted. Both for reasons of lack of maturity of the language and tools and ecosystem, and because of the decisions made in its creation. It has some really interesting ideas, but it has some glaring holes.
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Given that most dev work is leaning hard in the direction of the web, historically desktop languages are not long for the world. C# doesn't necessarily glue you to Windows any more than C++ glues you to Linux. I haven't looked at rust at all, given my proximity to retirement. New languages will probably be more widely (or wildly) embraced as us oldsters move out of the work force.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Given that most dev work is leaning hard in the direction of the web, historically desktop languages are not long for the world. C# doesn't necessarily glue you to Windows any more than C++ glues you to Linux. I haven't looked at rust at all, given my proximity to retirement. New languages will probably be more widely (or wildly) embraced as us oldsters move out of the work force.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013But, the other side of that coin, though I hate it terribly, is that everything is pushing us towards rented software and undoing the PC revolution. That means that the back end of the web becomes heavier and heavier. Folk like Amazon are hiring a lot for large scale back end development to support this trend. It takes a lot of software to track everything we do and package it up for sale.
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