Regarding this week's survey question...
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:zzz: I have been in management before. I still stand by my original comments.
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musefan wrote:
In short, there just isn't enough consequence to releasing bugs anymore.
Very good post!! You are totally spot on with that. Back in the day when you had to ship 3.5" floppies, you had to get it right!!
Like DRHuff (above) said 'such a youngster'. Back when I was working mainframes, in order to do a patch I had to book a plane, take the patch tapes to each TRADOC (12 or 13 I think) site, install, test, then re-train the users in the changes. Generally figured a week at each site.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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musefan wrote:
In short, there just isn't enough consequence to releasing bugs anymore.
Very good post!! You are totally spot on with that. Back in the day when you had to ship 3.5" floppies, you had to get it right!!
When I started around '98, CD/R had just become the rage. I have recurring nightmares of sitting in a hotel room in Nashville the night before the release of our flagship software. We were burning and labeling CDs while testing the latest version...it was down to the wire. A critical bug meant that we wasted over 80 CDs/labels and had to start over...it was 4:30AM before I got to bed that night! :zzz: We were too cheap for duplicators...it was 2 machines set up to do one at a time. :sigh: To your point, we haven't shipped anything on CD (or any physical media) since shortly after that incident. For many years after that, it was common to get a phone call from someone saying 'I've found this CD in my desk (usually left by a predecessor)...' and get a cold shiver :omg: that they may have actually installed what by then was years old buggy software. Luckily, it was at least good enough that they could see the potential and applying the latest patch was usually easy enough. One other thing that used to confuse people was that the boss at that time decided that it would look better if the versioning started at 6.x.x. :confused: The question for those who still write/maintain desktop software is 'how good is your application's update process?' Mine work for the most part with the exception of some customers who are 'locked down' or have aggressive A/V that eats files as they are installed/updated. :wtf: It's a fleeting question as everything seems to be moving 'to the cloud' or web-based at least.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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"Which software development methodologies do you use?" What I think has been lost in all the noise of so-called methodologies is the total disregard for quality. And by that I mean simple things like DRY principle and even correct spelling (particularly customer facing UI's). We speak of passion for software development, but where is the passion for doing something well? I don't mean perfect, but the code I so often encounter just screams "I clearly don't give a shit." These methodologies, they don't address any of this. Where in these methodologies is "show that you care about your work?" It doesn't exist. Maybe I should create a Care-Bear[^] Methodology and write a "care meter" plugin for VS. :laugh:
Latest Article - A 4-Stack rPI Cluster with WiFi-Ethernet Bridging Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
It's mostly about quick and painless release cycles. Have a bug? Fix and roll out, you'll be back in business in a couple of minutes (in theory, practice learns that bugs are piling up, business wants new features, and the work around is somewhat acceptable :laugh: ). What's more, you either write code that works and won't be touched for the next ten years or you're constantly writing on the same code base. There doesn't really seem to be an in between. In fact, businesses are changing so rapidly that I've read articles telling me to write code that can be thrown away and replaced because it'll probably be obsolete in a few months or even weeks anyway. Add to that, that new languages, tools and (versions of) frameworks are released almost monthly. If you started programming in 2015 you wouldn't even have a chance to really learn any language well because you've probably switched everything three times already. To give but an example, in 2015 I was working with Knockout.js, which was replaced with Angular, after which came AngularJS (and don't forget TypeScript either!) which was to bloated so people started doing React and Vue.js instead (there have been some others as well, like Ember and Aurelia). Heck, I just googled "front end frameworks" and out of the top five on some websites I only knew Bootstrap, back in 2017 (yes, only two years ago) I knew them all! You may have switched from .NET to .NET Core, which isn't too big of a change, but in school you probably did Java. Oh, and now your boss wants Node.js too! Perhaps you hopped on the mobile hype train so you're doing... PhoneGap Xamarin Ionic Kendo UI, heck what are kids using these days, Swift? In database land everyone wants MySQL SQL Server PostgreSQL Redis MongoDB some multi-model DB that has them all, like Cosmos DB. For DevOps, which is pretty hot, the choice is easy Jenkins Bamboo TeamCity GitLab... Myself, I stick to one tool only TFS VSO VSTS Azure DevOps! Well, at least my package manager stayed the same... NuGet Bower npm Webpack Yarn NuGet again. And don't forget everything has to be cloud nowadays, AWS or Azure, although businesses are starting to use Google Cloud as well (at leas
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Careful or I might get tempted to start porting to TypeScript.
cheers Chris Maunder
:-D
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Relax man! Do you even have a sense of humor? :doh:
Socialism is the Axe Body Spray of political ideologies: It never does what it claims to do, but people too young to know better keep buying it anyway. (Glenn Reynolds)
DRHuff wrote:
Do you even have a sense of humor?
sorry, not today, I guess. :sigh:
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Like DRHuff (above) said 'such a youngster'. Back when I was working mainframes, in order to do a patch I had to book a plane, take the patch tapes to each TRADOC (12 or 13 I think) site, install, test, then re-train the users in the changes. Generally figured a week at each site.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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When I started around '98, CD/R had just become the rage. I have recurring nightmares of sitting in a hotel room in Nashville the night before the release of our flagship software. We were burning and labeling CDs while testing the latest version...it was down to the wire. A critical bug meant that we wasted over 80 CDs/labels and had to start over...it was 4:30AM before I got to bed that night! :zzz: We were too cheap for duplicators...it was 2 machines set up to do one at a time. :sigh: To your point, we haven't shipped anything on CD (or any physical media) since shortly after that incident. For many years after that, it was common to get a phone call from someone saying 'I've found this CD in my desk (usually left by a predecessor)...' and get a cold shiver :omg: that they may have actually installed what by then was years old buggy software. Luckily, it was at least good enough that they could see the potential and applying the latest patch was usually easy enough. One other thing that used to confuse people was that the boss at that time decided that it would look better if the versioning started at 6.x.x. :confused: The question for those who still write/maintain desktop software is 'how good is your application's update process?' Mine work for the most part with the exception of some customers who are 'locked down' or have aggressive A/V that eats files as they are installed/updated. :wtf: It's a fleeting question as everything seems to be moving 'to the cloud' or web-based at least.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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Good story of the old days. :thumbsup: I remember those tricks of versioning. No one trusted 1.0 etc. After that we all knew versioning was just a lie anyways. :)
Kind of mandatory: A startup's codebase | CommitStrip[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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"Which software development methodologies do you use?" What I think has been lost in all the noise of so-called methodologies is the total disregard for quality. And by that I mean simple things like DRY principle and even correct spelling (particularly customer facing UI's). We speak of passion for software development, but where is the passion for doing something well? I don't mean perfect, but the code I so often encounter just screams "I clearly don't give a shit." These methodologies, they don't address any of this. Where in these methodologies is "show that you care about your work?" It doesn't exist. Maybe I should create a Care-Bear[^] Methodology and write a "care meter" plugin for VS. :laugh:
Latest Article - A 4-Stack rPI Cluster with WiFi-Ethernet Bridging Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc wrote:
Maybe I should create a Care-Bear[^] Methodology and write a "care meter" plugin for VS.
Please make Nuget package and publish the source code to CP, GitHub. :)
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It's mostly about quick and painless release cycles. Have a bug? Fix and roll out, you'll be back in business in a couple of minutes (in theory, practice learns that bugs are piling up, business wants new features, and the work around is somewhat acceptable :laugh: ). What's more, you either write code that works and won't be touched for the next ten years or you're constantly writing on the same code base. There doesn't really seem to be an in between. In fact, businesses are changing so rapidly that I've read articles telling me to write code that can be thrown away and replaced because it'll probably be obsolete in a few months or even weeks anyway. Add to that, that new languages, tools and (versions of) frameworks are released almost monthly. If you started programming in 2015 you wouldn't even have a chance to really learn any language well because you've probably switched everything three times already. To give but an example, in 2015 I was working with Knockout.js, which was replaced with Angular, after which came AngularJS (and don't forget TypeScript either!) which was to bloated so people started doing React and Vue.js instead (there have been some others as well, like Ember and Aurelia). Heck, I just googled "front end frameworks" and out of the top five on some websites I only knew Bootstrap, back in 2017 (yes, only two years ago) I knew them all! You may have switched from .NET to .NET Core, which isn't too big of a change, but in school you probably did Java. Oh, and now your boss wants Node.js too! Perhaps you hopped on the mobile hype train so you're doing... PhoneGap Xamarin Ionic Kendo UI, heck what are kids using these days, Swift? In database land everyone wants MySQL SQL Server PostgreSQL Redis MongoDB some multi-model DB that has them all, like Cosmos DB. For DevOps, which is pretty hot, the choice is easy Jenkins Bamboo TeamCity GitLab... Myself, I stick to one tool only TFS VSO VSTS Azure DevOps! Well, at least my package manager stayed the same... NuGet Bower npm Webpack Yarn NuGet again. And don't forget everything has to be cloud nowadays, AWS or Azure, although businesses are starting to use Google Cloud as well (at leas
...and don't forget the new paradigms of running and deploying and managing your applications...Docker and Kubernetes!
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When I started around '98, CD/R had just become the rage. I have recurring nightmares of sitting in a hotel room in Nashville the night before the release of our flagship software. We were burning and labeling CDs while testing the latest version...it was down to the wire. A critical bug meant that we wasted over 80 CDs/labels and had to start over...it was 4:30AM before I got to bed that night! :zzz: We were too cheap for duplicators...it was 2 machines set up to do one at a time. :sigh: To your point, we haven't shipped anything on CD (or any physical media) since shortly after that incident. For many years after that, it was common to get a phone call from someone saying 'I've found this CD in my desk (usually left by a predecessor)...' and get a cold shiver :omg: that they may have actually installed what by then was years old buggy software. Luckily, it was at least good enough that they could see the potential and applying the latest patch was usually easy enough. One other thing that used to confuse people was that the boss at that time decided that it would look better if the versioning started at 6.x.x. :confused: The question for those who still write/maintain desktop software is 'how good is your application's update process?' Mine work for the most part with the exception of some customers who are 'locked down' or have aggressive A/V that eats files as they are installed/updated. :wtf: It's a fleeting question as everything seems to be moving 'to the cloud' or web-based at least.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
In those days MSDN came in a wheel barrow.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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In those days MSDN came in a wheel barrow.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
In those days MSDN came in a wheel barrow.
Back then, the entire MSDN library fit on a single CD. They would send quarterly updates through the mail. In the days before Google, it was a resource that I depended on, along with whatever books I bought on my own. :)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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While I think this is true for the most part, it also largely depends on your line of work. My software runs machines that produce a LOT of product every day. I hear about nearly every hiccup it has because it costs the company money and that is very consequential to a lot of people and their wallets. Me included.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Yeah that makes sense. It was more of a general point, I think there is still some areas where software needs to be perfect, such as financial and medical etc. just because the liability of error is too great.
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"Which software development methodologies do you use?" What I think has been lost in all the noise of so-called methodologies is the total disregard for quality. And by that I mean simple things like DRY principle and even correct spelling (particularly customer facing UI's). We speak of passion for software development, but where is the passion for doing something well? I don't mean perfect, but the code I so often encounter just screams "I clearly don't give a shit." These methodologies, they don't address any of this. Where in these methodologies is "show that you care about your work?" It doesn't exist. Maybe I should create a Care-Bear[^] Methodology and write a "care meter" plugin for VS. :laugh:
Latest Article - A 4-Stack rPI Cluster with WiFi-Ethernet Bridging Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
We speak of passion for software development, but where is the passion for doing something well? I don't mean perfect, but the code I so often encounter just screams "I clearly don't give a sh*t."
I find more of a "I clearly have no damned clue" often being screamed by some outside code.
"'Do what thou wilt...' is to bid Stars to shine, Vines to bear grapes, Water to seek its level; man is the only being in Nature that has striven to set himself at odds with himself." —Aleister Crowley
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DRHuff wrote:
Do you even have a sense of humor?
sorry, not today, I guess. :sigh:
And my apologies as well - rereading this a day later I have to say that my response was a bit dickish. :sigh:
Socialism is the Axe Body Spray of political ideologies: It never does what it claims to do, but people too young to know better keep buying it anyway. (Glenn Reynolds)
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stoneyowl2 wrote:
Generally figured a week at each site
Those were the days when you could get out of your cubicle! Now you're stuck in the grey walls and all you have is the Internet. :laugh:
Well, now I am (semi) retired, and my cubicle is a spare bedroom. The walls have my own paintings on them, and I listen to music as loud as I want :)
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I don't mean perfect, but the code I so often encounter just screams "I clearly don't give a sh*t." These methodologies, they don't address any of this.
Totally agree. I believe you may find that the answer is related to what I call : Assembly-Line Programming Very many devs are writing only one small piece of anything they are building. This means you churn out your piece and someone else has the whole in mind. You don't care. It's just like the old Automobile lines. Screw on 3 bolts and let it go down the line. 3 bolts! 3 bolts! 3 bolts! Screw it, I'm tired today, 2 bolts! 2 bolts!! It is a human condition thing that is difficult to weed out in these large projects. Large projects where you are only one small little piece make you feel like you are accomplishing basically nothing. it's a human problem. However, those of us who create maybe the entire Software Product from end-to-end and even write the documentation and are completely "responsible" get a totally different experience from it. That's where the real energy comes from. But, how to do this on a large project!?! I'm not sure. EDIT And often on big projects you attempt to tell someone, "uh, I don't think this is going quite right." And they tell you, "Dont rock the boat, you trouble-maker. Sit down, shut up and get your bolts on!!" On end-to-end projects, you better get it right. You're the only one and you better rock the boat a lot. Edit 2 The word I always use to sum all of this up is: Ownership! Edit 3 This is also what the Agile Manifesto means by :
Agile Manifesto Principle:
The best architectures, requirements, and designs emerge from self-organizing teams.
It means you go out and find people who are engaged in the process and you "contract" them to build and own a particular piece. This is self-organizing team where each individual cares deeply about what s/he is building and owns it completely. However, teams are not created this way in BigCorp. They just give you devs or DBAs or whatever to do something (screw on a bolt).
