What do you think?
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Yet, people were slaughtering each other long before religious differences became part of the equation. You could solve the "religion problem" yet still not solve the "violence problem". I'm more of an athiest than I am a fundamentalist, but blaming the problems of humanity on religion represents a gross oversimplification of the real issues of why people seem so inclined to destroy one another.:rose:
Point well taken. However, I wasn't intending to imply that religion was the basic reason for all violence, but simply a very popular excuse. -- Russell Morris Georgia Institute of Technology "Hello, I'm doctor stupid. I'm going to take out your liver bones!" - Ralph Wiggum
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Religion is the dumbest thing to fight over. Since there is no god then nobody's right in a religious conflict. If everybody would just get over it, alot of the world's problems would be solved. Josh josh@that-guy.net
I'm interested to know how you go about proving there is no God. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I'm interested to know how you go about proving there is no God. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I'm interested in knowing how you prove there is a god. Josh josh@that-guy.net
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Here's one that may start a flame war, but I hope not. As I consider us programmers to be quite a smart and reasoning bunch, what do you guys think should happen with the refugees on the freight ship of the coast of Australia? I was quite supprised that it would be possible to put through legislation so quickly. Probably some kind of record. Giles
As an Aussie I am flabergasted by the whole thing. In the paper yesterday they were saying the Norwegian crew expect that they should bring the folks here on the basis that Australia made the call for assistance. Well of COURSE we did, the Indonesians don't care about these people !! We called for help and have flown in medical supplies, and as far as I am concerned that is fair and good. But to allow these people into the country does two things. It sends a message that we'll let anyone into the country and it sends a message that paying money to someone to smuggle you into Australia is a hot ticket. I say send them back, and anyone who wants to complain about Australia being the bad ones can open THEIR country to a flood of unskilled migrants ready to put a strain on social security services and public housing. I'm all for migration and I'm all for compassion for people in need, as well as import of skilled workers, but as John Howard said yesterday, we will not have our immigration policy decided for us by people smugglers. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I'm interested to know how you go about proving there is no God. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I think god is a concept that humans developed, without which human civilization could never have survived. I don't necessarily think that religious teachings are bad; I just question the whole Almighty Father figure situation. "I might be goin' to hell in a bucket, But at least I'm enjoying the ride." Josh josh@that-guy.net
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I think god is a concept that humans developed, without which human civilization could never have survived. I don't necessarily think that religious teachings are bad; I just question the whole Almighty Father figure situation. "I might be goin' to hell in a bucket, But at least I'm enjoying the ride." Josh josh@that-guy.net
Well, the basic problem really as I see it is that just about everyone talking about God is talking about religion. In other words, ritual, tradition, ideas, a power structure where the man at the top makes enough money not to feel silly in a dress, etc. If you actually read the Bible, you'll find that it's really different to that, and that the God of the Bible is into proving He exists by doing tangible things. It's because I realised that and checked it out that I found He *does* do physical things and is not at all interested in our power structures or politics that I am certain by experience there is a God. Just because you've not discovered this, just because you've not met God does not mean He does not exist. You could claim equally my wife does not exist using the same basis for your argument, the only difference is no-one has told you lies about my wife. Funny thing - as a result of the 'Allah' threads recently I got an email from someone offering to expound the Quran to me, and prove it's veracity. He refused to tell me anything until I told him some background, which I did. I emailed him three times after telling him I was a Christian and he did not reply once. Apparently he knew when he was beat... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Well, the basic problem really as I see it is that just about everyone talking about God is talking about religion. In other words, ritual, tradition, ideas, a power structure where the man at the top makes enough money not to feel silly in a dress, etc. If you actually read the Bible, you'll find that it's really different to that, and that the God of the Bible is into proving He exists by doing tangible things. It's because I realised that and checked it out that I found He *does* do physical things and is not at all interested in our power structures or politics that I am certain by experience there is a God. Just because you've not discovered this, just because you've not met God does not mean He does not exist. You could claim equally my wife does not exist using the same basis for your argument, the only difference is no-one has told you lies about my wife. Funny thing - as a result of the 'Allah' threads recently I got an email from someone offering to expound the Quran to me, and prove it's veracity. He refused to tell me anything until I told him some background, which I did. I emailed him three times after telling him I was a Christian and he did not reply once. Apparently he knew when he was beat... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
What sort of tangible things? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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What sort of tangible things? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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As an Aussie I am flabergasted by the whole thing. In the paper yesterday they were saying the Norwegian crew expect that they should bring the folks here on the basis that Australia made the call for assistance. Well of COURSE we did, the Indonesians don't care about these people !! We called for help and have flown in medical supplies, and as far as I am concerned that is fair and good. But to allow these people into the country does two things. It sends a message that we'll let anyone into the country and it sends a message that paying money to someone to smuggle you into Australia is a hot ticket. I say send them back, and anyone who wants to complain about Australia being the bad ones can open THEIR country to a flood of unskilled migrants ready to put a strain on social security services and public housing. I'm all for migration and I'm all for compassion for people in need, as well as import of skilled workers, but as John Howard said yesterday, we will not have our immigration policy decided for us by people smugglers. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Geez, I wish my country could get away with that kind of attitude.
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Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). It helped them to carry on with their hard, hellish existences. For people who are all alone in the world, religion is the one thing that they can cling to, for the Bible will always be there for them: * Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. * Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. * Blessed are they which to hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. * Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. * Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. * Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. * Blessed are they which are presecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. * Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. * Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. That's just my humble opinion, of course. Nothing else. :| Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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As an Aussie I am flabergasted by the whole thing. In the paper yesterday they were saying the Norwegian crew expect that they should bring the folks here on the basis that Australia made the call for assistance. Well of COURSE we did, the Indonesians don't care about these people !! We called for help and have flown in medical supplies, and as far as I am concerned that is fair and good. But to allow these people into the country does two things. It sends a message that we'll let anyone into the country and it sends a message that paying money to someone to smuggle you into Australia is a hot ticket. I say send them back, and anyone who wants to complain about Australia being the bad ones can open THEIR country to a flood of unskilled migrants ready to put a strain on social security services and public housing. I'm all for migration and I'm all for compassion for people in need, as well as import of skilled workers, but as John Howard said yesterday, we will not have our immigration policy decided for us by people smugglers. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Hehe Iliked my mothers opinion. Bring them in, decide which ones we want to keep and send the rest back... It's a pretty simnplistic plan though, pity it's not that easy.... Senior Test Engineer GLI Australia www.gli.com.au
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Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Christian, For a smart guy, you can be real naive sometimes (and not just about Bon Jovi!!). Your ability to deceive yourself about the nature of what you call god (no big "G" on purpose) is entirely a matter for you and how you wish to waste that part of your life - but don't even try to run with any form of 'physical proof' for the existence your emotional crutch. There simply isn't any such proof - especially in the 'healing of disease'. I read recently that a study of prayer as an aid in treatment of heart attack victims had revealed that it had an apparently determental effect - more of the patients prayed for ended up dying!!
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Geez, I wish my country could get away with that kind of attitude.
What a country can get away with is up to them IMHO. John Howard also told the UN to get stuffed as a result of their telling us we should say 'sorry' for the stolen generation. I believe John Howard has done as much to express his regret over this issue as he can without making the country legally liable, and make no mistake, it's liability these people are after. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Christian, For a smart guy, you can be real naive sometimes (and not just about Bon Jovi!!). Your ability to deceive yourself about the nature of what you call god (no big "G" on purpose) is entirely a matter for you and how you wish to waste that part of your life - but don't even try to run with any form of 'physical proof' for the existence your emotional crutch. There simply isn't any such proof - especially in the 'healing of disease'. I read recently that a study of prayer as an aid in treatment of heart attack victims had revealed that it had an apparently determental effect - more of the patients prayed for ended up dying!!
Did I expect to make such a comment and *not* get flak over it ? ;) I guess you can believe the studies you read and I'll believe the evidence I have seen. What other religion has members who became converted precisely because when they didn't believe they knew they were prayed for and they were healed in ways too miraculous the explain away ? I've had other people tell me that studies have shown people are healed when prayed for because they have faith ( a placebo effect of epic proportions ), so I guess there will always be a study to support whatever POV you want to put forward. Oh, and Bon Jovi rocks ;) Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). It helped them to carry on with their hard, hellish existences. For people who are all alone in the world, religion is the one thing that they can cling to, for the Bible will always be there for them: * Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. * Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. * Blessed are they which to hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. * Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. * Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. * Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. * Blessed are they which are presecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. * Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. * Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. That's just my humble opinion, of course. Nothing else. :| Jon Sagara Sagara Software
I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. Your teachers were wrong, the Bible says nothing about such a process. FWIW you are in charge of your life, I didn't say otherwise. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). I agree with you, both about religion and ambiguity. I'm not talking about that though. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Christian, For a smart guy, you can be real naive sometimes (and not just about Bon Jovi!!). Your ability to deceive yourself about the nature of what you call god (no big "G" on purpose) is entirely a matter for you and how you wish to waste that part of your life - but don't even try to run with any form of 'physical proof' for the existence your emotional crutch. There simply isn't any such proof - especially in the 'healing of disease'. I read recently that a study of prayer as an aid in treatment of heart attack victims had revealed that it had an apparently determental effect - more of the patients prayed for ended up dying!!
Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. Besides statistics can be used to prove anything, 14 percent of all people know that. Here is how most statistics work these day. Step 1) Alot of people die from heart attacks. Setup 2) Alot of people pray for people who had heart attacks. Step 3) This must mean that Alot of people who have heart attacks get prayed for and die. See no real proof behind it. Oh and I and I agree with Christian, Bon Jovi rocks! -Matt Newman :suss:
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. Your teachers were wrong, the Bible says nothing about such a process. FWIW you are in charge of your life, I didn't say otherwise. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). I agree with you, both about religion and ambiguity. I'm not talking about that though. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Well, you're welcome to call me a liar based on your lack of experience if it props up your view of the universe, I guess. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Did I expect to make such a comment and *not* get flak over it ? ;) I guess you can believe the studies you read and I'll believe the evidence I have seen. What other religion has members who became converted precisely because when they didn't believe they knew they were prayed for and they were healed in ways too miraculous the explain away ? I've had other people tell me that studies have shown people are healed when prayed for because they have faith ( a placebo effect of epic proportions ), so I guess there will always be a study to support whatever POV you want to put forward. Oh, and Bon Jovi rocks ;) Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ...
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. Besides statistics can be used to prove anything, 14 percent of all people know that. Here is how most statistics work these day. Step 1) Alot of people die from heart attacks. Setup 2) Alot of people pray for people who had heart attacks. Step 3) This must mean that Alot of people who have heart attacks get prayed for and die. See no real proof behind it. Oh and I and I agree with Christian, Bon Jovi rocks! -Matt Newman :suss:
>> Prayer doesn't work... I agree (Ah, the power of selective editing) >>statistics can be used to prove anything I agree (again), and that was my point. Christian was offering "evidence" for his beliefs - I was demonstrating (briefly) that it's possible to find all kinds of "evidence" that seem to "prove" many different things. And Bon Jovi should give it up ...