When it hits the streets...
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
I doubt it, civilised people dont do this kind of thing
Civilized people don't ignore democracy by shutting down the government because they can't have what they want. Well copied from his orange big baby colleague on the other end of the ocean. Anyway, it's not just the left/libero... Whatever weird names you give to normal people to make yourself feel superior, that go on protest. I'm pretty sure a lot of right-winged people don't want to see their democracy being pissed on like that either. And there have been pro-Brexit protests as well, so I guess they are just as uncivilized, but you wouldn't mention that of course. We have a saying in the Netherlands, the pot calls the kettle black (spoiler, they're both black), meaning that you point the finger while you're exactly the same. That said, I wouldn't go protesting unless my life was at stake or something like that.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
Civilized people don't ignore democracy by shutting down the government
It is parliament that is being shut down, and it is being shut down because it is ignoring democracy. Democracy in the form of the referendum, which voted, by a small majority, to leave. Do you agree or not? Do you see that, do you understand the events, and the meanings of 'democracy' and 'parliament'?
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Sander Rossel wrote:
Civilized people don't ignore democracy by shutting down the government
It is parliament that is being shut down, and it is being shut down because it is ignoring democracy. Democracy in the form of the referendum, which voted, by a small majority, to leave. Do you agree or not? Do you see that, do you understand the events, and the meanings of 'democracy' and 'parliament'?
I disagree. The parliament is trying to make a deal, which takes time. Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic. Such things shouldn't be hurried (although, they're taking their sweet time, I agree on that). Pressing and pushing, acceptable. Closing down the parliament, not acceptable. This is why I'm against referendums, people generally have no clue what they're voting for. I wonder what the outcome of the referendum would be now.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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I disagree. The parliament is trying to make a deal, which takes time. Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic. Such things shouldn't be hurried (although, they're taking their sweet time, I agree on that). Pressing and pushing, acceptable. Closing down the parliament, not acceptable. This is why I'm against referendums, people generally have no clue what they're voting for. I wonder what the outcome of the referendum would be now.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
You cant disagree that the British public voted, on a simple 'in/out' referendum, for 'out'.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic.
A matter of opinion, and depends largely on the maturity of those involved on the continent.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Such things shouldn't be hurried
The referendum was three years ago.
Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm against referendums, people generally have no clue what they're voting for
How patronising and superior you are. I know many people who voted Brexit, working class, middle class, from all sorts of backgrounds (the benefit of British pubs, you get to mix with all sorts of people and discuss all sorts of things) and they know precisely why they voted to leave, they are aware of the risks, and are prepared to take them on. Like you, the sheer arrogance, the patronising attitude, of the elite, for the people of Britain is disgusting. These politicians who profess to lead the country, to represent their constituents in the house of commons, have utterly betrayed them, and the people of Britain know this, and are very angry. If Brexit doesnt go through, then the Brexit party will put up a member in every seat in Britain, and if the results go the same way as the MEP elections, a massive 450 seat (out of 620), will be Brexit party, and Parliament will vote through Brexit in an instant! The only reason Johnson is closing Parliament is because he knows if Farage gets in power, it will change UK politics for ever, and threaten the very existence of the Tory party. (Many Tory party member will go to the Brexit party if this happens, as has already happened (Anne Widdecombe for example)). Do you understand? Brexit will happen BECAUSE we have democracy. (Oh, and dont forget we dont have proportional representation. Although only 52% voted Brexit, they are from low population rural areas, so the effect in a general election would be a massive majority in Parliament. ) See?
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You cant disagree that the British public voted, on a simple 'in/out' referendum, for 'out'.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic.
A matter of opinion, and depends largely on the maturity of those involved on the continent.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Such things shouldn't be hurried
The referendum was three years ago.
Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm against referendums, people generally have no clue what they're voting for
How patronising and superior you are. I know many people who voted Brexit, working class, middle class, from all sorts of backgrounds (the benefit of British pubs, you get to mix with all sorts of people and discuss all sorts of things) and they know precisely why they voted to leave, they are aware of the risks, and are prepared to take them on. Like you, the sheer arrogance, the patronising attitude, of the elite, for the people of Britain is disgusting. These politicians who profess to lead the country, to represent their constituents in the house of commons, have utterly betrayed them, and the people of Britain know this, and are very angry. If Brexit doesnt go through, then the Brexit party will put up a member in every seat in Britain, and if the results go the same way as the MEP elections, a massive 450 seat (out of 620), will be Brexit party, and Parliament will vote through Brexit in an instant! The only reason Johnson is closing Parliament is because he knows if Farage gets in power, it will change UK politics for ever, and threaten the very existence of the Tory party. (Many Tory party member will go to the Brexit party if this happens, as has already happened (Anne Widdecombe for example)). Do you understand? Brexit will happen BECAUSE we have democracy. (Oh, and dont forget we dont have proportional representation. Although only 52% voted Brexit, they are from low population rural areas, so the effect in a general election would be a massive majority in Parliament. ) See?
Munchies_Matt wrote:
How patronising and superior you are.
Not quite. I'm simply acknowledging that these matters are not the specialty of most people. I write code from 9 to 5, I have to commute, cook, clean, shower, eat... Leaving me with a few hours of spare time to do the things I like. And what I don't like is to read up on all international news, deals, promises, laws and what have you. And now, the people like me, who know only what the papers want us to know, have to vote on those issues. It's like our managers telling us how to code, or that we should really use a SQL database. We hate that kind of stuff because we're trained professionals, while our managers are not. Yet, when it comes to politics we're suddenly all trained professionals. We elect some officials who are doing our country's coding and we're the managers who say "make sure enough money goes to healthcare." And now your officials are saying "Brexit really isn't such a good idea, we know this because it's our job to know." But no, the people who are programmers, farmers, doctors, lawyers, bakers, teachers, and everything except trained politicians and lawmakers get to decide. I mean, Brexit isn't even something that benefits anyone, what do you hope to achieve? Better healthcare? A boost to the economy? Better education? Brexit should be the means to an end, so vote for that end, not for the means. Now comes the "but our government is incapable and they're liars, blah blah blah..." That's how I think about most people, and it's probably true or not so many IT projects would fail (and other projects as well). Whatever you do you can't get it right, ever. The chances that some trained people who make this their job do it right is higher than that your local baker does it right. And if you don't like that I guess you shouldn't elect a couple of people to represent you in the first place. Anyway, I CAN respect Johnson for keeping his word and doing the will of the people. It's very rare for a politician to do such a thing. I simply don't currently approve of his methods. Let's just hope the people still approve of Brexit one year, or ten years, from now.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
How patronising and superior you are.
Not quite. I'm simply acknowledging that these matters are not the specialty of most people. I write code from 9 to 5, I have to commute, cook, clean, shower, eat... Leaving me with a few hours of spare time to do the things I like. And what I don't like is to read up on all international news, deals, promises, laws and what have you. And now, the people like me, who know only what the papers want us to know, have to vote on those issues. It's like our managers telling us how to code, or that we should really use a SQL database. We hate that kind of stuff because we're trained professionals, while our managers are not. Yet, when it comes to politics we're suddenly all trained professionals. We elect some officials who are doing our country's coding and we're the managers who say "make sure enough money goes to healthcare." And now your officials are saying "Brexit really isn't such a good idea, we know this because it's our job to know." But no, the people who are programmers, farmers, doctors, lawyers, bakers, teachers, and everything except trained politicians and lawmakers get to decide. I mean, Brexit isn't even something that benefits anyone, what do you hope to achieve? Better healthcare? A boost to the economy? Better education? Brexit should be the means to an end, so vote for that end, not for the means. Now comes the "but our government is incapable and they're liars, blah blah blah..." That's how I think about most people, and it's probably true or not so many IT projects would fail (and other projects as well). Whatever you do you can't get it right, ever. The chances that some trained people who make this their job do it right is higher than that your local baker does it right. And if you don't like that I guess you shouldn't elect a couple of people to represent you in the first place. Anyway, I CAN respect Johnson for keeping his word and doing the will of the people. It's very rare for a politician to do such a thing. I simply don't currently approve of his methods. Let's just hope the people still approve of Brexit one year, or ten years, from now.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ
But people arent interested in these deals. They see an increasing federal Europe, an increasing loss of self determination and an increasing loss of cultural identity in the face of immigration, not only from Europe, but specifically from outside, in the form of muslims. Then they see Junckers and Merkel saying 'come, all are welcome' and then turning around and dictating how many immigrants each country must take. And they read the news, they know of the muslim rape gangs, the terrorism in France, Germany, and in the UK. The bombs in London, 9/11, and they see all this, and what their cities and towns have become, and they look into the future, and see that more of this is going to happen unless they take back control, so they vote to do that. And can you blame them? Can you arrogantly say they are ignorant and have no understanding of the facts? Do you think they care about international trade deals? EU vs UK law? Do you think these things have any bearing at all on the decision to leave? Of course not, it is far more fundamental than that.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
I doubt it, civilised people dont do this kind of thing
Civilized people don't ignore democracy by shutting down the government because they can't have what they want. Well copied from his orange big baby colleague on the other end of the ocean. Anyway, it's not just the left/libero... Whatever weird names you give to normal people to make yourself feel superior, that go on protest. I'm pretty sure a lot of right-winged people don't want to see their democracy being pissed on like that either. And there have been pro-Brexit protests as well, so I guess they are just as uncivilized, but you wouldn't mention that of course. We have a saying in the Netherlands, the pot calls the kettle black (spoiler, they're both black), meaning that you point the finger while you're exactly the same. That said, I wouldn't go protesting unless my life was at stake or something like that.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
I haven't got all my facts to hand but I think it's the longest a Parliamentary session, counting sitting hours, has run without a Queen's speech. Given it is conference season Parliament was to be shut down during this time irrespective of this prorogation (minus the four or so days). MPs agreed to carry out the referendum result over three years ago(at the time I voted remain by the way). They have had over three years to get their act together and come up with something with the EU and have have so far failed. An extra four days is unlikely to really provide much more of a chance that they do come up with something. This is purely MPs, who have wasted time and money arguing over who should be in power - including the suggestion of an all white female government proposed by a Green MP - instead of getting on with delivering what they promised they would deliver. So now that it looks like they are not going to get their way, they start making ridiculous claims about democracy being subverted - while at the same time they have been calling all the time for the referendum vote to be ignored. Is this the longest parliamentary session ever? – House of Commons Library[^] FactCheck: Parliament ‘prorogation’ explained – Channel 4 News[^]
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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I haven't got all my facts to hand but I think it's the longest a Parliamentary session, counting sitting hours, has run without a Queen's speech. Given it is conference season Parliament was to be shut down during this time irrespective of this prorogation (minus the four or so days). MPs agreed to carry out the referendum result over three years ago(at the time I voted remain by the way). They have had over three years to get their act together and come up with something with the EU and have have so far failed. An extra four days is unlikely to really provide much more of a chance that they do come up with something. This is purely MPs, who have wasted time and money arguing over who should be in power - including the suggestion of an all white female government proposed by a Green MP - instead of getting on with delivering what they promised they would deliver. So now that it looks like they are not going to get their way, they start making ridiculous claims about democracy being subverted - while at the same time they have been calling all the time for the referendum vote to be ignored. Is this the longest parliamentary session ever? – House of Commons Library[^] FactCheck: Parliament ‘prorogation’ explained – Channel 4 News[^]
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Democracy is fine as long as it delivers what I want. And, to paraphrase most Remain supporting MPs, "to hell with the electorate".
Indeed, this is why I generally explain that I voted remain when I talk about this. I was bought up to value fair-play which means that being a gracious loser is a noble thing and I see this as something of a British value. People do need to be held to account for the promises that they have made - especially when they are in positions of great power. The whole argument of 'But it's going to destroy our nation" is a whole different issue and largely opinion from what I can see, as there are plausible arguments that run the other way too.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Indeed, this is why I generally explain that I voted remain when I talk about this. I was bought up to value fair-play which means that being a gracious loser is a noble thing and I see this as something of a British value. People do need to be held to account for the promises that they have made - especially when they are in positions of great power. The whole argument of 'But it's going to destroy our nation" is a whole different issue and largely opinion from what I can see, as there are plausible arguments that run the other way too.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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But people arent interested in these deals. They see an increasing federal Europe, an increasing loss of self determination and an increasing loss of cultural identity in the face of immigration, not only from Europe, but specifically from outside, in the form of muslims. Then they see Junckers and Merkel saying 'come, all are welcome' and then turning around and dictating how many immigrants each country must take. And they read the news, they know of the muslim rape gangs, the terrorism in France, Germany, and in the UK. The bombs in London, 9/11, and they see all this, and what their cities and towns have become, and they look into the future, and see that more of this is going to happen unless they take back control, so they vote to do that. And can you blame them? Can you arrogantly say they are ignorant and have no understanding of the facts? Do you think they care about international trade deals? EU vs UK law? Do you think these things have any bearing at all on the decision to leave? Of course not, it is far more fundamental than that.
Oi, this isn't what I signed up for! Stop making sense, you! :laugh: Seriously though, you make a very good point. I guess it's an emotional vote that may or may not be a smart vote (another reason I'm against referendums). People aren't rational, they're emotional, to a degree. The anti-EU feelings aren't limited to the UK though. I'm mad at them too, for throwing away money and meddling in Dutch affairs. However, when I make a sum of all the rights and wrongs they're more right than wrong. The EU should be asking itself if this is the EU we want, and I think most nations will vote against (including me). Keep in mind though, that the news reports that some immigrant shot an elderly lady, not that another immigrant helped one cross the street. Peace and tranquility don't have any news value, which is true for left, right and everything in between. And that's the news that people base(d) their votes on.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Indeed, this is why I generally explain that I voted remain when I talk about this. I was bought up to value fair-play which means that being a gracious loser is a noble thing and I see this as something of a British value. People do need to be held to account for the promises that they have made - especially when they are in positions of great power. The whole argument of 'But it's going to destroy our nation" is a whole different issue and largely opinion from what I can see, as there are plausible arguments that run the other way too.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
I am not aware that anybody voted for a no deal exit.
Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” We never have had a president* so completely deserving of scorn and yet so small in the office that it almost seems a waste of time and energy to summon the requisite contempt
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I haven't got all my facts to hand but I think it's the longest a Parliamentary session, counting sitting hours, has run without a Queen's speech. Given it is conference season Parliament was to be shut down during this time irrespective of this prorogation (minus the four or so days). MPs agreed to carry out the referendum result over three years ago(at the time I voted remain by the way). They have had over three years to get their act together and come up with something with the EU and have have so far failed. An extra four days is unlikely to really provide much more of a chance that they do come up with something. This is purely MPs, who have wasted time and money arguing over who should be in power - including the suggestion of an all white female government proposed by a Green MP - instead of getting on with delivering what they promised they would deliver. So now that it looks like they are not going to get their way, they start making ridiculous claims about democracy being subverted - while at the same time they have been calling all the time for the referendum vote to be ignored. Is this the longest parliamentary session ever? – House of Commons Library[^] FactCheck: Parliament ‘prorogation’ explained – Channel 4 News[^]
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
I agree with everything you say. But it still seems like a dick move to me :laugh: An extra four days probably would've resulted in nothing, but we'll never know. And the opposition still has the right to protest.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
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Oi, this isn't what I signed up for! Stop making sense, you! :laugh: Seriously though, you make a very good point. I guess it's an emotional vote that may or may not be a smart vote (another reason I'm against referendums). People aren't rational, they're emotional, to a degree. The anti-EU feelings aren't limited to the UK though. I'm mad at them too, for throwing away money and meddling in Dutch affairs. However, when I make a sum of all the rights and wrongs they're more right than wrong. The EU should be asking itself if this is the EU we want, and I think most nations will vote against (including me). Keep in mind though, that the news reports that some immigrant shot an elderly lady, not that another immigrant helped one cross the street. Peace and tranquility don't have any news value, which is true for left, right and everything in between. And that's the news that people base(d) their votes on.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Yep, almost no one in Europe wants this form of EU, yet they push ahead with it anyway! They are creating division, they are bringing about their own destruction! But, let me say this, even if Brexit does cost the UK, there are some things worth paying for. They are that valuable.
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I agree with everything you say. But it still seems like a dick move to me :laugh: An extra four days probably would've resulted in nothing, but we'll never know. And the opposition still has the right to protest.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
I think it is a bit of a "dick move" too - seeing the interview with Johnson where he refuses to even answer the question, as to whether this decision is related to Brexit, does make me think that he did this to taunt the remainers.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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I disagree. The parliament is trying to make a deal, which takes time. Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic. Such things shouldn't be hurried (although, they're taking their sweet time, I agree on that). Pressing and pushing, acceptable. Closing down the parliament, not acceptable. This is why I'm against referendums, people generally have no clue what they're voting for. I wonder what the outcome of the referendum would be now.
Best, Sander sanderrossel.com Continuous Integration, Delivery, and Deployment arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly
Sander Rossel wrote:
Leaving without a deal could prove to be problematic. Such things shouldn't be hurried
There have been a couple of years and a delay of several months... and still nothing. Things are not being hurried up. It is just the proposed deadline arriving.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
