Quick poll: Why the Indian education system sucks
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I started programming when I was 8, basic I was doing strings the first day...nothing advanced about it. Oh well, thats what happens when you put your trust in a government school system. Get this I didn't touch a computer untill I was 8 (I learned Basic on a crappy "precomputer" aka Learning toy crap) which was my brothers and was a 386. I've been programming with VC++ for 4/5 years now. (btw. I'm 17 now.) -Steven "the yellow dart" Hicks
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(Steven Hicks)n+1 wrote: Get this I didn't touch a computer untill I was 8 Lucky bug**r! :insert jealous emoticon here: I got my first computer when I was 17 (less than 2 years back). As for touching computers, I must have been 14, at the least - prolly older.
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
John-theKing wrote: Still i don't want to start Indo Pak debate here. I wasn't trying to pull one over you-honest. It's just that women in India seem to better off than women in Pak from waht I read everywhere and from your post. And yes, even in the IT dept, women are beginning to (pardon the pun, simply couldn't resist it-no offense meant) infiltrate. John-theKing wrote: take example of Yashavant Kanetkar, a popular name in Sub-Continent. He's well-known in Pak? :wtf: Surprising. Popular- among the masses, but hated in elite circles. Don't be too polite in criticizing YPK- I hate him, prolly more than you do. His books are X| X| X| . The only one which passes in my book is "Let Us C", which was my first C book :~ . John-theKing wrote: Yashavant copied "word-to-word" from his book, yes i repeat "word-to-word" copy. Yeah, I've heard quite some rumors about this too. John-theKing wrote: Similarly you mentioned those mushroom institutes teaching ASP.NET or VB in few months. Those institutes may also be ran by talented people but they are just wasting their energies [voice of experience] They aren't. [/voice of experience] Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.Vikram Punathambekar wrote: It's just that women in India seem to better off than women in Pak from what I read everywhere and from your post. Well comparison b/w Indian woman and Pakistan woman can be entirely different and interesting debate. You said that as you "read everywhere" an India woman is better than Pakistan woman. Now let me tell you that in Pakistan army there is a SSG (Special Service group) commando group in which there is a division of special trained women commandos. There is currently no women SSG commando in India. Though for the first time India is also bringing women in SSGs. I can give you the report from "Times of India" in the evening when i reach home. Also in medical colleges of Pakistan there is 70% women representation of female students ( i'd expect same trend in India). You pointed out my words about women in my previous post. No i didn't mean what you taken the meaning. I mean that in South Asian society average fathers bring dolls for their daughters and Aeroplane for their sons. Take example of India where so many "young male citizens" daily going abroad for jobs. Women are also doing jobs abroad but their representation is low. Of course women can work much harder than a man but in South Asia primarily the head of a family is a man who is regarded responsible. I didn't mean anything else. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: He's well-known in Pak? Why not many Indian books/writers are popular. Indian publisher BPB is the distributor of Indian books in the region and this publisher is earning a lot from Pakistan Ahem! Indian books are available in local currency rates like 200 Rs or 300 Rs. The books of Microsoft Press are about 50$, which is too much in local currency. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: The only one which passes in my book is "Let Us C", which was my first C book There are other books like: "VC++ COM and beyond", "C FAQ" which are rare books indeed.
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After reading this, vote this thread a 1 if you agree with me that the Indian education system sucks, 5 if you think it's cool. Please leave behind your valuable comments as to how this situation can be corrected. Before you 50-ish old-timers say "When I studied it was worse", remember- I'm less than 20 and still in college. Wherever I say "I learnt", it means "they taught only", because we students don't have ANY choice here. Now, enough ramblinbg. SCHOOL Till my 10th standard, the only "language" I learnt was BASIC. Largest program? 20 lines, maybe. The only statements I learnt - REM, INPUT, PRINT, IF-THEN-ELSE, FOR, GOTO, and maybe a coupla others. 11th and 12th standard: "Advanced" BASIC, such as string functions and other crap. For my 12th standard, I studied WordStar, Lotus 1-2-3 and dBASE alongwith BASIC. COLLEGE 1st year (annual pattern) 2000-2001: One C programming pracs paper. Largest program: 20 lines, prolly. 2nd year, 3rd sem (2001): Had a paper called "COBOL and advanced programming in C". COBOL? X| Advanced C? Oh yeah, we studied functions, arrays, structures and pointers for the first time. How advanced is that for you? 2nd year, 4th sem (2001-2002): Paper called "OOPS and C++". Hmmm... a C++ paper with no mention of templates, namespaces, new-style headers, new type casts, and other stuff like mutable. In short, pre-standardization C++. 3rd year, 5th sem (2002): Sometime around 1999, the University had decided that their syllabus was outdated since they were teaching Pascal, Fortran, etc. So they weeded out that crap (they missed COBOL, though- Y2K perhaps? ) and brought in this wonderful thing called Windows programming. At last, they were waking up...or were they? In 1999, they introduced for the first time, Win16 programming X| :shudder: . So, late in 2002, I was studying Win16 programming. [sarcasm] :cool: [/sarcasm] My classmates don't know that what they studied was Win16 (HECK, they wouldn't know what Win32 is, anyway) - ask them what sizeof(WPARAM) is, and they'll say 2 (if they remember; and that's a big if :snort: ) . No Win32 programming paper yet :( . 3rd year, 6th sem (2002-2003): No programming paper per se, but I had a paper called "client-server computing" in which the last 2 units out of 5 were on MFC - theory X| . So, I learnt all the sh_t about what happens when an MFC program is run, what functions are called, etc. All that is fine- provided that is NOT the core of the paper. :sigh: It was. Now we have 66 students in my class s
You think you have it tough?? The only languages I learned in College were basic C, C++. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: a C++ paper with no mention of templates, namespaces, new-style headers, new type casts, and other stuff like mutable And no, they did't teach all that stuff to me too. So what? Learn it yourself!I believe that's what separates the ones who are serious about it and those who are just going with the trend. Anyway, learning all of yourself gives you so much more satisfaction. Not too mention your assignments are automatic 'A's given the fact that you know more;) Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
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After reading this, vote this thread a 1 if you agree with me that the Indian education system sucks, 5 if you think it's cool. Please leave behind your valuable comments as to how this situation can be corrected. Before you 50-ish old-timers say "When I studied it was worse", remember- I'm less than 20 and still in college. Wherever I say "I learnt", it means "they taught only", because we students don't have ANY choice here. Now, enough ramblinbg. SCHOOL Till my 10th standard, the only "language" I learnt was BASIC. Largest program? 20 lines, maybe. The only statements I learnt - REM, INPUT, PRINT, IF-THEN-ELSE, FOR, GOTO, and maybe a coupla others. 11th and 12th standard: "Advanced" BASIC, such as string functions and other crap. For my 12th standard, I studied WordStar, Lotus 1-2-3 and dBASE alongwith BASIC. COLLEGE 1st year (annual pattern) 2000-2001: One C programming pracs paper. Largest program: 20 lines, prolly. 2nd year, 3rd sem (2001): Had a paper called "COBOL and advanced programming in C". COBOL? X| Advanced C? Oh yeah, we studied functions, arrays, structures and pointers for the first time. How advanced is that for you? 2nd year, 4th sem (2001-2002): Paper called "OOPS and C++". Hmmm... a C++ paper with no mention of templates, namespaces, new-style headers, new type casts, and other stuff like mutable. In short, pre-standardization C++. 3rd year, 5th sem (2002): Sometime around 1999, the University had decided that their syllabus was outdated since they were teaching Pascal, Fortran, etc. So they weeded out that crap (they missed COBOL, though- Y2K perhaps? ) and brought in this wonderful thing called Windows programming. At last, they were waking up...or were they? In 1999, they introduced for the first time, Win16 programming X| :shudder: . So, late in 2002, I was studying Win16 programming. [sarcasm] :cool: [/sarcasm] My classmates don't know that what they studied was Win16 (HECK, they wouldn't know what Win32 is, anyway) - ask them what sizeof(WPARAM) is, and they'll say 2 (if they remember; and that's a big if :snort: ) . No Win32 programming paper yet :( . 3rd year, 6th sem (2002-2003): No programming paper per se, but I had a paper called "client-server computing" in which the last 2 units out of 5 were on MFC - theory X| . So, I learnt all the sh_t about what happens when an MFC program is run, what functions are called, etc. All that is fine- provided that is NOT the core of the paper. :sigh: It was. Now we have 66 students in my class s
It sounds like you're bored :) Go get an engineering or advanced physics degree and learn programming on your own. That's what I did. The programming courses in my school where way ahead of what you're describing but they still sucked. 2-3 months of self learning on c++ will get you far beyond what you'll learn in a class. It's easy. It's fun. Get on with it! Todd Smith
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After reading this, vote this thread a 1 if you agree with me that the Indian education system sucks, 5 if you think it's cool. Please leave behind your valuable comments as to how this situation can be corrected. Before you 50-ish old-timers say "When I studied it was worse", remember- I'm less than 20 and still in college. Wherever I say "I learnt", it means "they taught only", because we students don't have ANY choice here. Now, enough ramblinbg. SCHOOL Till my 10th standard, the only "language" I learnt was BASIC. Largest program? 20 lines, maybe. The only statements I learnt - REM, INPUT, PRINT, IF-THEN-ELSE, FOR, GOTO, and maybe a coupla others. 11th and 12th standard: "Advanced" BASIC, such as string functions and other crap. For my 12th standard, I studied WordStar, Lotus 1-2-3 and dBASE alongwith BASIC. COLLEGE 1st year (annual pattern) 2000-2001: One C programming pracs paper. Largest program: 20 lines, prolly. 2nd year, 3rd sem (2001): Had a paper called "COBOL and advanced programming in C". COBOL? X| Advanced C? Oh yeah, we studied functions, arrays, structures and pointers for the first time. How advanced is that for you? 2nd year, 4th sem (2001-2002): Paper called "OOPS and C++". Hmmm... a C++ paper with no mention of templates, namespaces, new-style headers, new type casts, and other stuff like mutable. In short, pre-standardization C++. 3rd year, 5th sem (2002): Sometime around 1999, the University had decided that their syllabus was outdated since they were teaching Pascal, Fortran, etc. So they weeded out that crap (they missed COBOL, though- Y2K perhaps? ) and brought in this wonderful thing called Windows programming. At last, they were waking up...or were they? In 1999, they introduced for the first time, Win16 programming X| :shudder: . So, late in 2002, I was studying Win16 programming. [sarcasm] :cool: [/sarcasm] My classmates don't know that what they studied was Win16 (HECK, they wouldn't know what Win32 is, anyway) - ask them what sizeof(WPARAM) is, and they'll say 2 (if they remember; and that's a big if :snort: ) . No Win32 programming paper yet :( . 3rd year, 6th sem (2002-2003): No programming paper per se, but I had a paper called "client-server computing" in which the last 2 units out of 5 were on MFC - theory X| . So, I learnt all the sh_t about what happens when an MFC program is run, what functions are called, etc. All that is fine- provided that is NOT the core of the paper. :sigh: It was. Now we have 66 students in my class s
I'm currently studying robotics and mechatronics engineering in Australia, and as a student I couldn't agree with you more, but I think the problem is far wider spread than you've said. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Now we have 66 students in my class starting their final year, of which 65 can't print "Hello, world!" in MFC The same thing happens at our university - and from what I've heard it's becoming a more wide spread occurance. Most of the students in our course wouldn't know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor or C and java. It's unbelievably frustrating that so many concepts are skipped. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I still feel surprised when I see 15-year olds (even 19-year olds) in the West doing C++, C# and ASP .net . You see, 20-year olds here can't write a 100-line program in C. I understand what you mean but I feel that maths is far more important to understand. I'd call myself a reasonably strong coder, but I haven't done any maths for almost three years, and then one lecturer pulls out MATLAB and expects us to be able to understand his image processing code. I can teach myself most of the programming stuff, most of the software engineering stuff but if mathematics aren't taught from a far more foundational level (primary school) to a much higher level (university level) I believe all engineering and CS is going to suffer in the long term.
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Thomas George wrote: If you are a CS major, and expect that you need lessons in programming languages, I am sorry about that. Wrong- what good is it if you know all the concepts very well but don't know any programming lang? Do you think anybody will give a job to a fellow fresh out of college who can neither write a 200-line program in C++ nor print "Hello, world!" in Java/MFC/whatever? Concepts are important- that is unquestionable, but so are programming languages. Thomas George wrote: Also, You cannot expect your teachers to be supreme geniuses who know everything. I don't. I simplly expect them to know (and teach, of course) the basics. It's a case of "One who can, does; one who cannot, teaches" syndrome. Thomas George wrote: To me, the major problem is that the education system does not challenge the students enough. Exactly. Err... isn't that what I was saying? I didn't use the same words, though. Just of curiosity, where did you grad from?
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.I have experience first hand that many students make an opinion on what they want, and why they will want it. I understand that most companies want people who can code. My question: Why can't the students code? Will it be solved if a C++ language class is introduced? I doubt it. In any case, I am neutral to which language is taught in a Computer Science course. Leaving complex languages out of the curriculum makes room for conceptual teaching. It also allows room to the student to choose a language of his liking to learn. Say, student A learns Java, student B learns C#, student C learns C++. The only objective achieved by adding the language to the curriculum is grading the knowledge of the semantics of the language. I would rather see computer science graduates being able to think about problems and solutions in a language independent manner. IMO, Languages and tools are important. The college should give students access to these like they have a library. But, if the curriculum includes just Pascal, I am ok with it. It is a good enough language to make someone understand how to write a program. ...and I don't think it is a waste of time. There is a saying "You can get only as good as your teacher". In higher education courses, I just expect some initiative from the student to seek out knowledge. Most of my fellow students restricted themselves to the books recommended in the course syllabus. It is not a good practice. When someone is learning computers, he has to increase the number of "teachers" he/she has by reading different sources. One thing that I realized very early on in college is that the teacher is there for "guiding" you, and you have to "teach" yourself. I like a very flexible framework, where students are not bound to too many things, but rather is graded on knowledge of fundamentals. The student should have the initiative to understand the industry he is training to get into, and learn the tools that he chooses. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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It sounds like you're bored :) Go get an engineering or advanced physics degree and learn programming on your own. That's what I did. The programming courses in my school where way ahead of what you're describing but they still sucked. 2-3 months of self learning on c++ will get you far beyond what you'll learn in a class. It's easy. It's fun. Get on with it! Todd Smith
The problem is that most of these courses are not programming courses, rather computer science courses. Students wrongly expect to get taught on commercial tools, but the stated objective of the course itself may be different - to get the students know the computer science theory. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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I'm currently studying robotics and mechatronics engineering in Australia, and as a student I couldn't agree with you more, but I think the problem is far wider spread than you've said. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Now we have 66 students in my class starting their final year, of which 65 can't print "Hello, world!" in MFC The same thing happens at our university - and from what I've heard it's becoming a more wide spread occurance. Most of the students in our course wouldn't know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor or C and java. It's unbelievably frustrating that so many concepts are skipped. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I still feel surprised when I see 15-year olds (even 19-year olds) in the West doing C++, C# and ASP .net . You see, 20-year olds here can't write a 100-line program in C. I understand what you mean but I feel that maths is far more important to understand. I'd call myself a reasonably strong coder, but I haven't done any maths for almost three years, and then one lecturer pulls out MATLAB and expects us to be able to understand his image processing code. I can teach myself most of the programming stuff, most of the software engineering stuff but if mathematics aren't taught from a far more foundational level (primary school) to a much higher level (university level) I believe all engineering and CS is going to suffer in the long term.
Exactly. Anyone who is reasonably logical can figure out programming languages, but sound fundamental knowledge is what I would expect the higher education to deliver. Like you said, learning mathematics would be and should be a higher priority that C++/Java etc., when you are in school. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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It sounds like you're bored :) Go get an engineering or advanced physics degree and learn programming on your own. That's what I did. The programming courses in my school where way ahead of what you're describing but they still sucked. 2-3 months of self learning on c++ will get you far beyond what you'll learn in a class. It's easy. It's fun. Get on with it! Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote: It sounds like you're bored Taking it out with doing some things myself. Todd Smith wrote: Go get an engineering or advanced physics degree Dang it- this is an Engg corse- B. E. Computer Science and Engineering. Todd Smith wrote: 2-3 months of self learning on c++ will get you far beyond what you'll learn in a class. It's easy. It's fun. Get on with it! :rolleyes: You think I'm waiting for them? Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
I have experience first hand that many students make an opinion on what they want, and why they will want it. I understand that most companies want people who can code. My question: Why can't the students code? Will it be solved if a C++ language class is introduced? I doubt it. In any case, I am neutral to which language is taught in a Computer Science course. Leaving complex languages out of the curriculum makes room for conceptual teaching. It also allows room to the student to choose a language of his liking to learn. Say, student A learns Java, student B learns C#, student C learns C++. The only objective achieved by adding the language to the curriculum is grading the knowledge of the semantics of the language. I would rather see computer science graduates being able to think about problems and solutions in a language independent manner. IMO, Languages and tools are important. The college should give students access to these like they have a library. But, if the curriculum includes just Pascal, I am ok with it. It is a good enough language to make someone understand how to write a program. ...and I don't think it is a waste of time. There is a saying "You can get only as good as your teacher". In higher education courses, I just expect some initiative from the student to seek out knowledge. Most of my fellow students restricted themselves to the books recommended in the course syllabus. It is not a good practice. When someone is learning computers, he has to increase the number of "teachers" he/she has by reading different sources. One thing that I realized very early on in college is that the teacher is there for "guiding" you, and you have to "teach" yourself. I like a very flexible framework, where students are not bound to too many things, but rather is graded on knowledge of fundamentals. The student should have the initiative to understand the industry he is training to get into, and learn the tools that he chooses. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: Why can't the students code? Lack of interest. Thomas George wrote: Will it be solved if a C++ language class is introduced? I doubt it. This question opens up a can of worms. I guess my reply can only be "It would be relatively better". Thomas George wrote: There is a saying "You can get only as good as your teacher". I don't subscribe to that POV - sorry. Thomas George wrote: Most of my fellow students restricted themselves to the books recommended in the course syllabus. It is not a good practice. Same is the case here. X| BTW, where did you graduate from? Sorry, pal, I'm just too curious- and you didn't answer it last time. Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
You think you have it tough?? The only languages I learned in College were basic C, C++. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: a C++ paper with no mention of templates, namespaces, new-style headers, new type casts, and other stuff like mutable And no, they did't teach all that stuff to me too. So what? Learn it yourself!I believe that's what separates the ones who are serious about it and those who are just going with the trend. Anyway, learning all of yourself gives you so much more satisfaction. Not too mention your assignments are automatic 'A's given the fact that you know more;) Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
Nick Seng wrote: The only languages I learned in College were basic C, C++. That must have been a few years back. What course in collegeare you talking about? Nick Seng wrote: And no, they did't teach all that stuff to me too. So what? Learn it yourself!I believe that's what separates the ones who are serious about it and those who are just going with the trend. DANG IT - I'm
not
complaining "they aren't teaching me this or that". What I'm worried about is the student community as a whole (and as a direct result, the industry, in a few years). Nick Seng wrote: Anyway, learning all of yourself gives you so much more satisfaction And fun. :) OT: Cool pic on your bio. :cool:
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
I'm currently studying robotics and mechatronics engineering in Australia, and as a student I couldn't agree with you more, but I think the problem is far wider spread than you've said. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Now we have 66 students in my class starting their final year, of which 65 can't print "Hello, world!" in MFC The same thing happens at our university - and from what I've heard it's becoming a more wide spread occurance. Most of the students in our course wouldn't know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor or C and java. It's unbelievably frustrating that so many concepts are skipped. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I still feel surprised when I see 15-year olds (even 19-year olds) in the West doing C++, C# and ASP .net . You see, 20-year olds here can't write a 100-line program in C. I understand what you mean but I feel that maths is far more important to understand. I'd call myself a reasonably strong coder, but I haven't done any maths for almost three years, and then one lecturer pulls out MATLAB and expects us to be able to understand his image processing code. I can teach myself most of the programming stuff, most of the software engineering stuff but if mathematics aren't taught from a far more foundational level (primary school) to a much higher level (university level) I believe all engineering and CS is going to suffer in the long term.
walker_andrew_b wrote: Most of the students in our course wouldn't know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor :omg::wtf: walker_andrew_b wrote: one lecturer pulls out MATLAB and expects us to be able to understand his image processing code. Hahahaha, my lecturers don't have any code worth showing - if they did, they'd be working for the industry. walker_andrew_b wrote: I believe all engineering and CS is going to suffer in the long term. Sadly, yes. I know my whole thread looks very bitter; but I'm disappointed, disillusioned and disgusted with the whole system here. That's why I believe in self-teaching (see the Edit stuff in the original post). Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
Thomas George wrote: Why can't the students code? Lack of interest. Thomas George wrote: Will it be solved if a C++ language class is introduced? I doubt it. This question opens up a can of worms. I guess my reply can only be "It would be relatively better". Thomas George wrote: There is a saying "You can get only as good as your teacher". I don't subscribe to that POV - sorry. Thomas George wrote: Most of my fellow students restricted themselves to the books recommended in the course syllabus. It is not a good practice. Same is the case here. X| BTW, where did you graduate from? Sorry, pal, I'm just too curious- and you didn't answer it last time. Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.You did not understand the saying "You can only be as good as your teacher". What I meant is: You should not consider the person teaching you in college as your ONLY teacher for the subject. If you do, you will NEVER become better than your teacher. But, if Stroustrup, Sutter, Meyers etc are your teachers for C++, you will know everything you will need to. Many students do not get out of the "kindergarten" mode, where the be-all and end-all of everything is what the teacher says. In a college, it should not be. If you can't make sense out of something, either you did not understand or the teacher is wrong. Either way, you are better off getting information from publications of exponents in the area, thereby making them your teachers. It is like Eklavya making Drona his teacher. You don't need the teacher's consent for this :-) The lack of interest in students cannot be solved by changing higher education syllabus. The reason for lack of interest is the lack of creativity, and the assumption by most students that whatever is written in a textbook is not open to debate. I graduated in Electronics and Communications Engineering from College of Engineering, Trivandrum. The best thing that happened to me there was that the teachers did not care what we did :-). Gives a lot of room to do what you want, and experiment with things. Thomas My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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walker_andrew_b wrote: Most of the students in our course wouldn't know the difference between a capacitor and a resistor :omg::wtf: walker_andrew_b wrote: one lecturer pulls out MATLAB and expects us to be able to understand his image processing code. Hahahaha, my lecturers don't have any code worth showing - if they did, they'd be working for the industry. walker_andrew_b wrote: I believe all engineering and CS is going to suffer in the long term. Sadly, yes. I know my whole thread looks very bitter; but I'm disappointed, disillusioned and disgusted with the whole system here. That's why I believe in self-teaching (see the Edit stuff in the original post). Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.That's why I believe in self-teaching IMO, Self-learning is the ONLY way to learn. :-) My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Nick Seng wrote: The only languages I learned in College were basic C, C++. That must have been a few years back. What course in collegeare you talking about? Nick Seng wrote: And no, they did't teach all that stuff to me too. So what? Learn it yourself!I believe that's what separates the ones who are serious about it and those who are just going with the trend. DANG IT - I'm
not
complaining "they aren't teaching me this or that". What I'm worried about is the student community as a whole (and as a direct result, the industry, in a few years). Nick Seng wrote: Anyway, learning all of yourself gives you so much more satisfaction And fun. :) OT: Cool pic on your bio. :cool:
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.I was doing a double major in Computer Science and Mathematics. And it wasn't that long ago, just graduated last year.Jeez, did you have to make me sound old! ;P Vikram Punathambekar wrote: OT: Cool pic on your bio Thanks,man! :cool: Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
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You did not understand the saying "You can only be as good as your teacher". What I meant is: You should not consider the person teaching you in college as your ONLY teacher for the subject. If you do, you will NEVER become better than your teacher. But, if Stroustrup, Sutter, Meyers etc are your teachers for C++, you will know everything you will need to. Many students do not get out of the "kindergarten" mode, where the be-all and end-all of everything is what the teacher says. In a college, it should not be. If you can't make sense out of something, either you did not understand or the teacher is wrong. Either way, you are better off getting information from publications of exponents in the area, thereby making them your teachers. It is like Eklavya making Drona his teacher. You don't need the teacher's consent for this :-) The lack of interest in students cannot be solved by changing higher education syllabus. The reason for lack of interest is the lack of creativity, and the assumption by most students that whatever is written in a textbook is not open to debate. I graduated in Electronics and Communications Engineering from College of Engineering, Trivandrum. The best thing that happened to me there was that the teachers did not care what we did :-). Gives a lot of room to do what you want, and experiment with things. Thomas My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: But, if Stroustrup, Sutter, Meyers etc are your teachers :drool: Thomas George wrote: The lack of interest in students cannot be solved by changing higher education syllabus. Yes, but what about those students who are interested in learning whatever is in the syllabus very well (taking interest, not just for the exams), but nothing out of the syllabus? There seem to be a few people like this around, sitting on the fence. A syllabus change will pull them on to our side. More importantly, making the syllabus tuff will weed out the ones who study just 'cos their parents want them to/for the degree. Hey, you're from India, too- you must have seen lots of people of this type. Thomas George wrote: I graduated in Electronics and Communications Engineering from College of Engineering, Trivandrum. Nice to meet a fellow-Indian. :) Thomas George wrote: The best thing that happened to me there was that the teachers did not care what we did Ditto here X| , but some encouragement here would go a loooong way in improving everybody's skills- a snowball effect. And I'm curious to know what you voted. :-D Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
I was doing a double major in Computer Science and Mathematics. And it wasn't that long ago, just graduated last year.Jeez, did you have to make me sound old! ;P Vikram Punathambekar wrote: OT: Cool pic on your bio Thanks,man! :cool: Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
Nick Seng wrote: And it wasn't that long ago, just graduated last year.Jeez, did you have to make me sound old! Hey, I said "a few years". I didn't say "quite a few years". You're only as old as you think you are. How old do you think you are- 50? ;P
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
Nick Seng wrote: And it wasn't that long ago, just graduated last year.Jeez, did you have to make me sound old! Hey, I said "a few years". I didn't say "quite a few years". You're only as old as you think you are. How old do you think you are- 50? ;P
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.Vikram Punathambekar wrote: How old do you think you are - 50 I feel like 50, with so much work in the office! X| Take my advice, man. Cherish the time you have in School. These are gonna be the best time in life! Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
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Thomas George wrote: But, if Stroustrup, Sutter, Meyers etc are your teachers :drool: Thomas George wrote: The lack of interest in students cannot be solved by changing higher education syllabus. Yes, but what about those students who are interested in learning whatever is in the syllabus very well (taking interest, not just for the exams), but nothing out of the syllabus? There seem to be a few people like this around, sitting on the fence. A syllabus change will pull them on to our side. More importantly, making the syllabus tuff will weed out the ones who study just 'cos their parents want them to/for the degree. Hey, you're from India, too- you must have seen lots of people of this type. Thomas George wrote: I graduated in Electronics and Communications Engineering from College of Engineering, Trivandrum. Nice to meet a fellow-Indian. :) Thomas George wrote: The best thing that happened to me there was that the teachers did not care what we did Ditto here X| , but some encouragement here would go a loooong way in improving everybody's skills- a snowball effect. And I'm curious to know what you voted. :-D Regards,
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.The problem with the Indian education system, IMO, are the following. They are not the same as you mentioned above. 1. No emphasis on problem-solving at school level: After writing essays that are memorized from text books for 10 years, many students find it difficult to change to a problem-solving mode. 2. Too much too early: I have not seen many changes in what is learned at say by 12th. But, there is a significant increase in what is learned in classes 1 to 4. IMO, this is a very bad practice. At such an early age, children should not be burdened with too much information. There is an emphasis on technical education these days, and everything else is not considered good enough. Someone with outstanding literary skills faces a lot of pressure to go into "professional courses" that would earn them a living. The students do it against their aptitude. Most people, who you say cannot write a 100 line C++ program cannot write, because they do not want to. They probably did not want to know what C++ is. The parental pressures push them to it. To me, these are larger social issues, because of lack of opportunity in the non-technical areas - something which the education system will not be able to address. Summary: Education system does not work well, because wrong people are in the system. The way these people come into the system is a larger social problem, and cannot be solved by trivial insignificant fiddling with course curiculum. So, I found that your suggestions would not evoke much interest in the currently un-interested. :-). My vote: 5 (A change the social reality that bring economic activity in literature, arts and other areas, so that there is a chance for people with aptitude and skills in those areas to make a living is the only way to ensure that the right people are in the right places. Now people don't follow their dreams. That, IMO, is the problem. IMO, It will not change, whatever you do to the education system) My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: How old do you think you are - 50 I feel like 50, with so much work in the office! X| Take my advice, man. Cherish the time you have in School. These are gonna be the best time in life! Nick Seng (the programmer formerly known as Notorious SMC)
God, I pity me! - Phoncible P. Bone
Nick Seng wrote: I feel like 50 Your sig says it all. ;P Nick Seng wrote: Cherish the time you have in School. These are gonna be the best time in life! :rolleyes:
Vikram. ----------------------------- My site due for a massive update. Never see a BSOD again - FREE! "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.