Does anyone know how to talk to a memory stick?
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
[USBlyzer - USB Protocol Analyzer and USB Traffic Sniffer for Windows](https://www.usblyzer.com)
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
The device in the link is something very different than what you are looking for. Remember that USB has devices with Master role; tose are usally the hosts that initate and manage all the comunication on the bus. Then there are Slave devices that respond to master's requests and send out data in an orderly manner, when instructed to do so. The device you are referring is of the latter type; it can only reply to a host requests and it can't talk to other USB devices. What you want to implement is a master node. As you may have understood, the master has very complex tasks to accomplish, since the USB bus is a Plug 'n play thing. One of the first things the master has to do is to enumerate the devices that are on the bus, and it has to do it dynamically, since a device can be added at any time. Then it has to manage the configuration of the device (if needed) and then set up the comunication. Things gets soon very complicated even for a simple comunication with a mass storage. In this case, after the USB 'low level' protocol, you will have to deal also with the "Mass storage" layer. All I remember is that on the Microchip knowledge base there was some application note with a very simple implementation of basic usb protocol master made to be run on a their smallest microcontrollers, but i regret to say that I don't have any link to it anymore. Whatever you do, it will be a huge work, and probably lot of fun ;-). Good luck !
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The device in the link is something very different than what you are looking for. Remember that USB has devices with Master role; tose are usally the hosts that initate and manage all the comunication on the bus. Then there are Slave devices that respond to master's requests and send out data in an orderly manner, when instructed to do so. The device you are referring is of the latter type; it can only reply to a host requests and it can't talk to other USB devices. What you want to implement is a master node. As you may have understood, the master has very complex tasks to accomplish, since the USB bus is a Plug 'n play thing. One of the first things the master has to do is to enumerate the devices that are on the bus, and it has to do it dynamically, since a device can be added at any time. Then it has to manage the configuration of the device (if needed) and then set up the comunication. Things gets soon very complicated even for a simple comunication with a mass storage. In this case, after the USB 'low level' protocol, you will have to deal also with the "Mass storage" layer. All I remember is that on the Microchip knowledge base there was some application note with a very simple implementation of basic usb protocol master made to be run on a their smallest microcontrollers, but i regret to say that I don't have any link to it anymore. Whatever you do, it will be a huge work, and probably lot of fun ;-). Good luck !
If the idea of the project is to prove that you can do it on that aged CPU, just for fun, I guess you'll have to do the big work of implementing a USB host. If you have a problem that requires a solution, one way or the other, you could use one of the tinier Arduions as a relay: Your old CPU talk through an RS232 interface to an Arduino that acts as a USB host through e.g. The Arduino USB Host Shield[^], forwarding the data to the USB devices. Making the two boards cooperate is a nice challenge as well: You will have to do some protocol development to synchronize activities under two quite different OSes. Not too hard, but well above what you would give as a homework assignment to a freshman CS student. I am sure that there are similar Raspberry Pi solutions, but Pi solutions tend to be more ambitious, larger, more expensive. Arduino solutions are often more limited, but much simpler to handle if all you need is a very simple solution. If you are a soldering iron person: That Arduino web page refers to the MAX3421E[^] chip on the shield. You may of course try to get hold of one of those and add to your setup, avoiding the complexities of an Arduino. You can probably pick up a lot of useful info from the Documentation tab on the Arduino page (such as the diagram for the shield).
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
CodeWraith wrote:
Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives?
I had a TRS-80 Model 100, along with the external floppy drive. The drive used RS-232 at a whopping 19.2K baud to talk to the drive, which held an amazing 100K.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
lw@zi wrote:
I talk to it sometimes. Something along these lines: "Just get in to the slot you little..."
Has it ever responded with, "wrong way - flip me over"?
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
Converters like the one mentioned are typically only for connecting slave devices to host computers. If you are trying to be the host and use a memory stick, you need a USB Host or OTG peripheral. Something along the lines of the Arduino Host shield if you want a pre-made solution. Arduino USB Host Shield[^]
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lw@zi wrote:
I talk to it sometimes. Something along these lines: "Just get in to the slot you little..."
Has it ever responded with, "wrong way - flip me over"?
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If this were not the place it is, I would now ask you by which coordinate axis you flipped her over and if that was the right choice.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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If this were not the place it is, I would now ask you by which coordinate axis you flipped her over and if that was the right choice.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Quote:
"wrong way - flip me over"?
I had a girlfriend say that to me once, long, long ago.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
Have you seen Mark of RetroClinic's DataCentre (RetroClinic DataCentre - USB on your Beeb[^]) for the BBC Micro? The DataCentre is discontinued, but I expect he would be willing to discuss any questions you have.
I seem to recall that one of the big issues was the Beeb's 16-bit address bus, which meant only accessing a fraction of, say, an SD card's capacity, but I have no idea what the solution was. -
I mean the low level protocol, not some framework, API or driver. In my ongoing quest to interface modern devices to very old 8 bit computers I have stumbled over this: DEBO USB TTL: Raspberry Pi -USB-TTL-Schnittstellenwandler, CH340G bei reichelt elektronik[^] Not really rocket science. With this I can send and receive bytes from a USB device with a simple UART. This would solve a few problems at once. A simple cheap memory stick would be all the hard disk' an 8 bit computer would ever need. Don't worry about speed. Mass storage is for many reasons a relatively slow affair on 8 bit computers, beginning with their low bandwith on the bus. Remember what Commodore did with the C64's floppy drives? I could also use a USB keyboard or a mouse. So, with that converter and a UART I can now talk to USB devices. Can I also hook up a USB hub to it and access several USB devices over the same UART? How do I select devices? How do I request or send bytes? Some kind of USB protocol with an embedded device specific protocol?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
USB is complicated. Trust me. I would highly discourage you to implement your own. That said, the protocol you're looking for is the USB Mass Storage CDC (Common Device Class). You're probably going to have to toush USB Attached SCSI as well. If you want to do that though, this CH340 won't do, because it is a USB **device** and not a **host**. You'll need something with either a USB ROOT hub (like a RasPi), or USB OTG (I heard some AT90's and PIC16F's are capable of this, but I never found anything like that, so dunno). You also don't "select" devices per se. When a USB device is connected, the USB hub sends you (the ROOT hub) a message. Let's say, it was hub #5. Then you instruct said hub to reset it. This will make the newly attached device assume an address of "5.0". Now, you send a GET DESCRIPTOR followed by a SET ADDRESS to USB address "5.0.0", which is the CONTROL endpoint of the new device. In SET ADDRESS, you give it a permanent address that it can use moving forward. Now, why did I say you don't really "select" devices? Because, even though you *can* address individual devices, *all* attached USB devices will hear the ROOT's messages, and it is up to them to decide whether to activate or not. If you misconfigure a device and cause an address collision, you're screwed. I could go on and on about USB, but I think you get the point: Don't Implement Your Own. For your purposes, I'd use a SD/microSD card instead, as these can be used in SPI transfer mode, which is a cakewalk to implement, as opposed to the pain-in-the-backyard you're gonna have if you try to implement a USB host yourselves. "I don't think about dying. It is the last thing I want to do. :) " - theoldfool
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USB is complicated. Trust me. I would highly discourage you to implement your own. That said, the protocol you're looking for is the USB Mass Storage CDC (Common Device Class). You're probably going to have to toush USB Attached SCSI as well. If you want to do that though, this CH340 won't do, because it is a USB **device** and not a **host**. You'll need something with either a USB ROOT hub (like a RasPi), or USB OTG (I heard some AT90's and PIC16F's are capable of this, but I never found anything like that, so dunno). You also don't "select" devices per se. When a USB device is connected, the USB hub sends you (the ROOT hub) a message. Let's say, it was hub #5. Then you instruct said hub to reset it. This will make the newly attached device assume an address of "5.0". Now, you send a GET DESCRIPTOR followed by a SET ADDRESS to USB address "5.0.0", which is the CONTROL endpoint of the new device. In SET ADDRESS, you give it a permanent address that it can use moving forward. Now, why did I say you don't really "select" devices? Because, even though you *can* address individual devices, *all* attached USB devices will hear the ROOT's messages, and it is up to them to decide whether to activate or not. If you misconfigure a device and cause an address collision, you're screwed. I could go on and on about USB, but I think you get the point: Don't Implement Your Own. For your purposes, I'd use a SD/microSD card instead, as these can be used in SPI transfer mode, which is a cakewalk to implement, as opposed to the pain-in-the-backyard you're gonna have if you try to implement a USB host yourselves. "I don't think about dying. It is the last thing I want to do. :) " - theoldfool
Thanks. Upgrading an old computer is not easy and I'm still looking in all directions to see what is reasonable and what is not. Actually I'm not really upgrading it, but restoring it to its original condition and then build a new one with the upgrades. SD in SPI mode is also possible, but the processor has no real SPI port. however, it does have a few microcontrollerish I/O signals. These already are doing triple duty as bit banged RS232, bit banged cassette tape I/O and bit banged sound generation. Back in the day, be even did digital sound recording and playback with them.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.