Sorry, whats the problem with face detect for police use?
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
Have you seen the results of tests of the systems? They make far too many mistakes -- mistakes which could result in your being locked up in a police cell for a day or two, until these processes that you appear to have so much trust in are completed in your favour. ... That's IF they are completed in your favour; otherwise you could end up being locked up a lot longer. But I suppose that's OK, as long as it only happens to other people, eh?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Have you seen the results of tests of the systems? They make far too many mistakes -- mistakes which could result in your being locked up in a police cell for a day or two, until these processes that you appear to have so much trust in are completed in your favour. ... That's IF they are completed in your favour; otherwise you could end up being locked up a lot longer. But I suppose that's OK, as long as it only happens to other people, eh?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
They make far too many mistakes
No, the person who does not use the brain is making the mistake. Never trust a computer.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
There is nothing wrong with it. This has been going on for hundreds of years only long ago it was a poster on the sheriff's wall of those that were wanted. It's hilarious how all of the sudden in the last few years "privacy" became such a big deal. No one wants anyone to know anything about them yet they post everything about themselves on the internet and they carry a tracking device in their pocket. I heard the other day someone complaining about people being able to google them and find their address. And yet this was someone who is old enough to have been around when everyone's address was delivered door to door for free for everyone to see. I have the Nextdoor app, basically facebook for neighborhoods, and all the time people are posting "Someone took a picture of my house. What should I do!!?" Technology amplifies people's craziness. :laugh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
They make far too many mistakes
No, the person who does not use the brain is making the mistake. Never trust a computer.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
1. Even a rookie policeman has a far lower mis-identification rate than the best face recognition system. 2. Yes,the system should be used as you suggest - it raises a flag, and the officer on the spot decides whether the match is correct. In practice, what happens is that officers have an unwarranted faith in the system's infallibility, and will simply arrest anyone the system indicates may be a criminal. 3. If I happened to look similar to a wanted criminal, I might be arrested multiple times for no good reason. Can anyone spell "malicious arrest" and "defamation of character"? 4. Given certain countries' admission policies (I'm looking at you, USA!), I would not want even a mistaken arrest on my record. The additional hassle when travelling there would be extremely annoying.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
They make far too many mistakes
No, the person who does not use the brain is making the mistake. Never trust a computer.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
the person who does not use the brain
... Is the person who has been swamped with misinformation about how perfect a system is, by the corporations that make the product. And bear in mind that we're talking about cops, not rocket surgeons.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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ZurdoDev wrote:
the person who does not use the brain
... Is the person who has been swamped with misinformation about how perfect a system is, by the corporations that make the product. And bear in mind that we're talking about cops, not rocket surgeons.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
rocket surgeons.
What kind of surgeries are done on a rocket?
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
rocket surgeons.
What kind of surgeries are done on a rocket?
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
You obviously haven't reached their level of education.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
What Mark says. The problem starts when the systems get so good that they only fail once every 10000 positive identifications. That's when the users learn to trust the tool
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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You obviously haven't reached their level of education.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
You obviously haven't reached their level of education.
Indeed. I am literate. :laugh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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There is nothing wrong with it. This has been going on for hundreds of years only long ago it was a poster on the sheriff's wall of those that were wanted. It's hilarious how all of the sudden in the last few years "privacy" became such a big deal. No one wants anyone to know anything about them yet they post everything about themselves on the internet and they carry a tracking device in their pocket. I heard the other day someone complaining about people being able to google them and find their address. And yet this was someone who is old enough to have been around when everyone's address was delivered door to door for free for everyone to see. I have the Nextdoor app, basically facebook for neighborhoods, and all the time people are posting "Someone took a picture of my house. What should I do!!?" Technology amplifies people's craziness. :laugh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
One of the problems as I see it is that said surveillance data (as it exists in its many forms) is kept and can be cross-referenced with other data, which can then reveal patterns that weren't observable before and that are frankly of nobody's business. Once you're merely aware of that, you might start changing your behavior, even if just subconsciously. Have you ever intentionally avoided using certain trigger words in a chat session or an email exchange, because you know the content is looked at by some algorithm trying to raise some red flags? Why should you alter your behavior, if you're a law-abiding citizen, if you claim to live in a free society? To say nothing about this same data leaking and becoming available to people who have no justification in seeing it. I was reading earlier this week (I forget where) about some NSA surveillance program that cost them $100M, but had only lead to a single investigation. Not a conviction, but a single investigation that was eventually dropped.
ZurdoDev wrote:
It's hilarious how all of the sudden in the last few years "privacy" became such a big deal. No one wants anyone to know anything about them yet they post everything about themselves on the internet and they carry a tracking device in their pocket.
There's a distinction to be made. For most, no, it has not become such a big deal. Despite what people say, they're not serious about it; if they choose to post everything about themselves and carry tracking devices everywhere they go, then they clearly don't care. This is still, essentially, opt-in; they can't claim to not have a choice. People survived just fine before Facebook and before smart phones made their appearance. I don't do either. Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to. And you have to object to _some_thing, even if just in principle, or if you just keep thinking nothing's a big deal, then you're already on a very slippery slope and you may some day realize that things evolved so gradually you didn't see where it was all headed until you find yourself living in a 1984 scenario. I'm no activist by any stretch and I have no time to go off on a crusade. But I still make conscious choices where I can (as you said - sharing crap on social media and carrying phones--that's a good place to start).
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Just reading through an article on Amazon and mentions the rekognistion tool, and that some "civil right activists claim it could lead to wrongful arrests". Its a tool. Yes, I understand if someone dumb and just relies on a tool 100%, that is on the human misusing the tool. A human is still involved in the process. It probably took a long time for CCTV black/white video recordings and camera to be tolerated. But it always sounds like person recognition tools are far worse. My basic understanding: At a big stadium you can have police focused on more intensive tasks then tons scanning the crowd. You still have a few scanning the crowd. Face detect tool identifies someone of high interest. Info is directed to nearest officer to approach. Office now should handle the rest as if they spotted the person them self. End. If a wrongful arrest happens, that is the fault of the existing system in place. If the computer made a lock or release decision, then I would be against it. That is NOT what it is being used for. "oh, but their are cases where judges use machine-learning tools to make decisions". Again, that is a poor judge mis understanding how the tool should be used - weather that is lack of training or been trained in a missleading way by the sellers of the tool. Now let me use this to better detect my cat to allow into the house. I still have a 10% fail that the neighbors cat is being allowed in. both tabbies and I think its something to do with the lighting ;P
Nothing wrong with it - makes it that much easier for me to hunt you down.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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ZurdoDev wrote:
the person who does not use the brain
... Is the person who has been swamped with misinformation about how perfect a system is, by the corporations that make the product. And bear in mind that we're talking about cops, not rocket surgeons.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
rocket surgeons.
I've been using that expression for years. Perhaps you noticed it at some point? Or, a frightening option, indeed: at some level we think alike.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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One of the problems as I see it is that said surveillance data (as it exists in its many forms) is kept and can be cross-referenced with other data, which can then reveal patterns that weren't observable before and that are frankly of nobody's business. Once you're merely aware of that, you might start changing your behavior, even if just subconsciously. Have you ever intentionally avoided using certain trigger words in a chat session or an email exchange, because you know the content is looked at by some algorithm trying to raise some red flags? Why should you alter your behavior, if you're a law-abiding citizen, if you claim to live in a free society? To say nothing about this same data leaking and becoming available to people who have no justification in seeing it. I was reading earlier this week (I forget where) about some NSA surveillance program that cost them $100M, but had only lead to a single investigation. Not a conviction, but a single investigation that was eventually dropped.
ZurdoDev wrote:
It's hilarious how all of the sudden in the last few years "privacy" became such a big deal. No one wants anyone to know anything about them yet they post everything about themselves on the internet and they carry a tracking device in their pocket.
There's a distinction to be made. For most, no, it has not become such a big deal. Despite what people say, they're not serious about it; if they choose to post everything about themselves and carry tracking devices everywhere they go, then they clearly don't care. This is still, essentially, opt-in; they can't claim to not have a choice. People survived just fine before Facebook and before smart phones made their appearance. I don't do either. Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to. And you have to object to _some_thing, even if just in principle, or if you just keep thinking nothing's a big deal, then you're already on a very slippery slope and you may some day realize that things evolved so gradually you didn't see where it was all headed until you find yourself living in a 1984 scenario. I'm no activist by any stretch and I have no time to go off on a crusade. But I still make conscious choices where I can (as you said - sharing crap on social media and carrying phones--that's a good place to start).
dandy72 wrote:
Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to.
Which is most everything in life.
dandy72 wrote:
you find yourself living in a 1984 scenario.
Technology won't get us there. Bad politicians and idiotic voters will do that.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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dandy72 wrote:
Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to.
Which is most everything in life.
dandy72 wrote:
you find yourself living in a 1984 scenario.
Technology won't get us there. Bad politicians and idiotic voters will do that.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
Technology won't get us there. Bad politicians and idiotic voters will do that.
But you can't deny technology is the enabler. You don't get the sort of mass surveillance we're facing today without it. I wouldn't have worried too much about having a profile being built around me back in the 1800s. Or even the 1950s, when people were ratting out their commie neighbors. But I agree, politicians (and those who vote them in) who allow it to happen on their watch need to take some blame--a lot of it. But they have little incentive to change anything, considering governments benefit from said surveillance. For one thing, it's great to help them determine who will keep them in power...
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ZurdoDev wrote:
Technology won't get us there. Bad politicians and idiotic voters will do that.
But you can't deny technology is the enabler. You don't get the sort of mass surveillance we're facing today without it. I wouldn't have worried too much about having a profile being built around me back in the 1800s. Or even the 1950s, when people were ratting out their commie neighbors. But I agree, politicians (and those who vote them in) who allow it to happen on their watch need to take some blame--a lot of it. But they have little incentive to change anything, considering governments benefit from said surveillance. For one thing, it's great to help them determine who will keep them in power...
dandy72 wrote:
You don't get the sort of mass surveillance we're facing today without it.
True. But my imagination is not good enough to even come up with the dangers of people knowing what you like to eat or where you buy your clothes. Is yours?
dandy72 wrote:
governments benefit from said surveillance.
How?
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Mark_Wallace wrote:
rocket surgeons.
I've been using that expression for years. Perhaps you noticed it at some point? Or, a frightening option, indeed: at some level we think alike.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I picked it up in the mid 80s (it was love at first sight), from someone on the alt.english.usage newsgroup, so it was knocking around at for least 20 years before I joined CP.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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dandy72 wrote:
Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to.
Which is most everything in life.
dandy72 wrote:
you find yourself living in a 1984 scenario.
Technology won't get us there. Bad politicians and idiotic voters will do that.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
dandy72 wrote:
Personally it's the things I have no control over I object to.
Which is most everything in life.
I have endless empirical evidence that proves that my wife disagrees with both of those statements.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I picked it up in the mid 80s (it was love at first sight), from someone on the alt.english.usage newsgroup, so it was knocking around at for least 20 years before I joined CP.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Well before I started using it. (alt. newgroups - ye gad that's a memory). In real-life I somewhat often will deliberately garble expressions in that manner - oddly, few even notice. Well, that's how it goes these days, and we find ourselves older but no wiser. One out of two, however, isn't bad.* * And older is clearly the better choice considering the option.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
