I don't want to start a political discussion
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I am not trying to finger-point. I wanted to have a conversation about the "only because we can it doesn't mean we should" There have been a couple of messages saying we can have a nice conversation in the lounge. I was trying to give a shot. I give you that the topic was very probably not the best selection, I just thought this way there would be more participation. I obviously was wrong :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
I didn't mean to imply you were - I meant the "journalist" who produced the original material.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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den2k88 wrote:
That, especially that network. Most programs on Rai3 are crap, they amplify any hoax and sell them as facts. My mother is quite fond of them and I had to spend many unhappy hours debunking all the idiocy they spew regularly about computer security, darknets and so on.
I wouldn't know that... then I suppose is like our Telecinco or the newspaper "Bild" in Germany
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not). The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level. If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread. I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels. BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^] IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus. The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways. IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia. I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should" It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil. ADDITION: I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now, especially after the SARS crisis in the past. It was proved that the virus could /edit NOT have been created intentionally in labs ; this said, it could have evolved from something created in a lab, but we will never know. Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast. Here an example of research about corona :Paper coronavirus 2007 - Google Search[^] /edit: damn, I missed the most important word in my post
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Nelek wrote:
does this always justify the "playing god" and "fvck the world" thinking of some scientists?
Honestly, I only ever saw this kind of scientist in B-series movies, and I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland. Not researching dangerous stuff means that it will remain dangerous. Considering that the strain they were working on is not the one in circulation it means that there were not safety breaches. So exactly where's the problem? Would it be cool to stop the work of those that are trying to come up with the vaccine for this virus? Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it. They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
den2k88 wrote:
I happen to know a lot of scientists, including people working on the LHC in Switzerland.
I do know people working in big pharma companies or investigating in universties labs too. My wife, some relatives and big number of friends are doctor med. in different specialities.
den2k88 wrote:
They are experimenting with dangerous stuff in order to make it no longer dangerous. Just because they were eorking proactively doesn't mean they are the root of all evil.
I am not saying they are evil.
den2k88 wrote:
Because their job involves exactly inducing mutation on the virus, studying its evolution, exposing it to chemicals and radiations, seeing if they can mutate it enough to make it not dangerous, not infective yet similar enough to help build anticorps for it.
I know, and it is a big potential good if the study end correctly, this is clear for me too. But mutations are a two sided sword and Murphy's laws are bitches. You never know what is going to be the end result, and that's part of my argument.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I didn't mean to imply you were - I meant the "journalist" who produced the original material.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Fair enough. Sadly sensationalism is sometimes the only thing that starts speaking about something. Afterwards some other sources with a bit more common sense join in (and that was my target, see what people here I consider intelligent can say about)
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now, especially after the SARS crisis in the past. It was proved that the virus could /edit NOT have been created intentionally in labs ; this said, it could have evolved from something created in a lab, but we will never know. Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast. Here an example of research about corona :Paper coronavirus 2007 - Google Search[^] /edit: damn, I missed the most important word in my post
Rage wrote:
Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast.
And that's my fear. i.e. Atomic energy / atomic bomb Genetic and mutations (or other biotech's) are two-sided swords and murphy's laws are real bitches... if we always push the boundaries (no matter with which intentions, I don't want to include things done in purpose for military) it might explode us in the face. And that's the aspect I wanted to bring in the conversation. Peniciline was a lucky accident / coincidence. But what will happen if the next accident / coincidence is something that goes in the opposite direction?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not). The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
den2k88 wrote:
Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not). The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...
So... more of the same as in Spain. Years ago the statal 2nd channel was the best. Reportages, Documentaries, other stuff... giving always the impresion of objectivity and well documented. Nowadays... you can forget it. 1st public Channel an extension of the public relationships of the government. Depressive :sigh: 2nd public Channel tries to keep an independant image, but you see that they are under pressure and can't avoid external interferences. Still one of the best channels in comparison Private channels: Telecinco - Sensationalism in pure essence. Realities to keep population dumb done with people even dumber Antena 3 - One political agenda La sexta - The other political agenda ... The only channels that still have a "decent" vote from my side are the ones with no news, no moderated programs that only schedule series, films and cartoons. But even they have tons of publicity that end annoying the hell out of you.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level. If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread. I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels. BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^] IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus. The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways. IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia. I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should" It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil. ADDITION: I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
"Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"
We have been doing this for hundreds of years, perhaps even longer. When we graft different types of plants onto each other we are interfering with nature. Mendel was fiddling with peas a while back. Perhaps the difference is that nowadays we can knock in or knock out specific genes - when I say specific even then it's within a certain probability, it's not an exact science. I think it's more of a philosophical question - the question going something like this: Given that there will always be bad/evil people in the world, do we limit technological progress to prevent these people from using that technology for their evil deeds? I think the answer to the above question is "No".
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Nelek wrote:
"Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"
We have been doing this for hundreds of years, perhaps even longer. When we graft different types of plants onto each other we are interfering with nature. Mendel was fiddling with peas a while back. Perhaps the difference is that nowadays we can knock in or knock out specific genes - when I say specific even then it's within a certain probability, it's not an exact science. I think it's more of a philosophical question - the question going something like this: Given that there will always be bad/evil people in the world, do we limit technological progress to prevent these people from using that technology for their evil deeds? I think the answer to the above question is "No".
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
When we graft different types of plants onto each other we are interfering with nature.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
that nowadays we can knock in or knock out specific genes - when I say specific even then it's within a certain probability, it's not an exact science.
Exactly And the potential boom is too high in my opinion. Nature has mutations too, but it is much slower. If we put in a couple of (weeks, months, years) what nature would do in centuries, milleniums or even more... We are not going to be able to react if something goes really bad.
GuyThiebaut wrote:
I think it's more of a philosophical question - the question going something like this: Given that there will always be bad/evil people in the world, do we limit technological progress to prevent these people from using that technology for their evil deeds? I think the answer to the above question is "No".
I am not defending the limitation. I am more for slowing down a bit and let our wisdom take up our knowledge. A parallel example could be what Woody Allen said once: "One gets married to solve problems that a single doesn't have" (translated on my own, too lazy to search for the exact quote in english) Sometimes we do things to try to get a solution for something that end being worst than the original problem. Luckily it is something that doesn't happen that often.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level. If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread. I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels. BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^] IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus. The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways. IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia. I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should" It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil. ADDITION: I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Oh, st*ff and nonsense! It's all because global warming exposed parts of Antarctica that haven't seen the light of day for millions of years, and the research team from Wuhan University unknowingly dug up an ancient microbe, than returned home before they realised they'd been infected by it. You can't argue with movie plots facts!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I was not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?
You mean like animal and plant "husbandry", where: • Pigs are bred to be fatter and fatter, until they can barely move? • Dogs are bred to the point where they can't give birth without human intervention? • Apples are bred for sweetness, to the point where they're basically sugar water, and less healthy than a bag of crisps (Leftpond "chips")? • Wheat is bred for yield, to the point where 40% of people have at least a mild allergy to it? Nah, it's not evil. It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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den2k88 wrote:
Yep, and that's public television for which we pay a mandatory tax to sustain in order to eep it free of advertisements (which is not), free of political manipulation (which is not) and with quality content (again, it is not). The private tv is even worse, much much worse. And that's another problem: the "cultured" people tend to be biased to what they hear on Rai3...
So... more of the same as in Spain. Years ago the statal 2nd channel was the best. Reportages, Documentaries, other stuff... giving always the impresion of objectivity and well documented. Nowadays... you can forget it. 1st public Channel an extension of the public relationships of the government. Depressive :sigh: 2nd public Channel tries to keep an independant image, but you see that they are under pressure and can't avoid external interferences. Still one of the best channels in comparison Private channels: Telecinco - Sensationalism in pure essence. Realities to keep population dumb done with people even dumber Antena 3 - One political agenda La sexta - The other political agenda ... The only channels that still have a "decent" vote from my side are the ones with no news, no moderated programs that only schedule series, films and cartoons. But even they have tons of publicity that end annoying the hell out of you.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
All I can say is Thank God for auntie Beeb! ... Which the current alt-right British government wants to turn into The Ministry of Truth[^].
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level. If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread. I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels. BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^] IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus. The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways. IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia. I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should" It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil. ADDITION: I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
You put trust in Salvini to tell the truth ?
I'd rather be phishing!
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Casting blame - founded or unfounded - helps no-one. Fix the problem, then work out how it happened and institute procedures to prevent it happening again. But sensationalist finger pointing by non-scientists just muddies the waters and reduces cooperation at the time it is most needed.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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This is going to bring consequences (whether it is real or not). I am not wanting to start a political discussion and I hope you can behave and that it doesn't degenerate to soapbox level. If you can't avoid it, I will delete the whole thread. I decide to post it, because it is already circulating in the news of several countries and I have already seen it translated to 3 different languages. It is only a matter of time, that you get to this through other channels. BREAKING: Salvini Demands Answers – Does a 2015 Italian Documentary Prove the Coronavirus was created in a Chinese Lab? (WATCH) – RAIR[^] IMPORTANT NOTE: The video goes about A coronavirus, not about THE coronavirus. The problem is that it is so similar, that the polemic is exploding anyways. IMPORTANT NOTE 2: Only because they were investigating something similar doesn't mean they are guilty of this pandemia. I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should" It is clear that many medical and technological advances are directly connected with dubvious experiments that ended right. But is it always worth the risks? We might do somethings to try to help, but at the end still be the cause of a big evil. ADDITION: I am not asking about "if they are involved", My question is more: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?" (more in the line of 12 monkeys[^] or contagion[^]
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
rumor has it that the U.S. Army and Israeli intelligence brought many viruses to Wuhan to be tested, corona-virus variations being one of them. Just google corona virus America, US Army, Israel and let the conspiracy theories reveal themselves. Whether any of it is true or not, the financial destruction this virus has caused world wide, will last much, much longer than the sickness and death caused directly by the virus. I fear this is just the beginning. get in your bunkers. batten down the hatches. it's going to be long winter this year. FYI - Lysol cleaner has been killing corona-virus for over 50 years. this virus is NOT new. this strand of it COVID-19 is human manipulated, nature had nothing to do with it.
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are you sure you are not a politician? :confused:
That is one of the vilest things anyone has ever said about me! X|
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now, especially after the SARS crisis in the past. It was proved that the virus could /edit NOT have been created intentionally in labs ; this said, it could have evolved from something created in a lab, but we will never know. Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast. Here an example of research about corona :Paper coronavirus 2007 - Google Search[^] /edit: damn, I missed the most important word in my post
Gawd yes - the Common Cold is a set of symptoms caused by a number of viruses, including a couple of Coronaviruses, Rhinoviruses, and so forth. And we still don't have a cure for that ... probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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That is one of the vilest things anyone has ever said about me! X|
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. :doh:
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well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. :doh:
Nah ... sticks and stones, and all that! :-D
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. :doh:
Anyway, how could I possibly be a politician? Ignoring that I have a spine, I answer questions! :laugh:
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
