I don't want to start a political discussion
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You kind of described a large part of the IT-industry here: Move fast and break things. :rolleyes: Then again, Always keep Hanlon's razor in mind
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Then again, Always keep Hanlon's razor in mind
That's the point... exactly because of that. We can think those kind of labs are that super secure, but then a day someone don't pay attention in a repetitive task, because didn't sleep well, felt a bit sick but "I am fine, thanks", drunk a bit during lunch because there was something to celebrate... When one is always in contact with danger, routine is a bad companion. And what it doesn't happen in many years, can happen in a second.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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and there are literally, thousands of reasons on the internet why it was man made. who is correct?
That's why I didn't want to entry in the "conspirational" point of view and tried to keep it in the "ethical-technological"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I am a science friend, but as someone told below, science is a tool and as such can be used right or wrong. If science always was that correct, there wouldn't be so many different thesis / conclusions over the same topics. In the moment there is big money on the way, the objectivity of pure scientific methodes get compromised. Data that is not included, data that is a bit tickled, data that is invented... And there have been enough examples of these.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote:
I want to bring focus to the: "only because we can doesn't mean that we should"
Then someone else will.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
And even more if there is $$$ to be earned at the end. I know.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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rumor has it that the U.S. Army and Israeli intelligence brought many viruses to Wuhan to be tested, corona-virus variations being one of them. Just google corona virus America, US Army, Israel and let the conspiracy theories reveal themselves. Whether any of it is true or not, the financial destruction this virus has caused world wide, will last much, much longer than the sickness and death caused directly by the virus. I fear this is just the beginning. get in your bunkers. batten down the hatches. it's going to be long winter this year. FYI - Lysol cleaner has been killing corona-virus for over 50 years. this virus is NOT new. this strand of it COVID-19 is human manipulated, nature had nothing to do with it.
Slacker007 wrote:
rumor has it that the U.S. Army and Israeli intelligence brought many viruses to Wuhan to be tested, corona-virus variations being one of them. Just google corona virus America, US Army, Israel and let the conspiracy theories reveal themselves.
There are more theories than that. And getting to the part of the topic, then the degeneration into soapbox material is granted and will be too fast to react. Let's keep it lounge safe, ok? And yes, I miss the soapbox too.
Slacker007 wrote:
the financial destruction this virus has caused world wide, will last much, much longer than the sickness and death caused directly by the virus.
I think that too. For me, this is going to be an inflection point, some things won't come back to previous state. The problem is... at the moment I can't say which ones or if the "after" will be better than "before". Only time will say.
Slacker007 wrote:
this virus is NOT new. this strand of it COVID-19 is human manipulated, nature had nothing to do with it.
I think too, that we have something to do with it. And one thing is clear for me, if mankind comes to an end, it will be 98% of probability due to our own acts.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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My problem with US mainstream media is twofold. First, it pretends to be neutral when it's not. In most other countries, newspapers in particular don't pretend that they have no political bias. Most other countries also have state-owned media, so it's pretty obvious where the bias will be there. Which leads into my second problem. As someone who would like to see governments--particularly federal--cut to a small fraction of their current size, mainstream media comes down on the side of bigger government far more often that not. It's basically an echo chamber for establishment thought, which in the US is either the Welfare-Warfare Party or the Warfare-Welfare Party.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
Basically, although not all wrong, your viewpoint is heavily tainted with that Euro point of view. Everyone there (and Canada, too?) is always bitching about the US getting involved in everything - but, with the current administration not getting involved I see the EU and it's cronies waiting to see what the US will do. Maybe if they used their own soldiers and treasure (to pay for these) then they would be seeing the world a bit differently: more cautious about who they support and more willing to act preemptively, instead of pulling yet-another continental Neville Chamberlain. Almost a contradiction. Putin knew full well the EU, etc., wouldn't do anything on their own. Armies are expensive, and most of the time, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, just sitting on their hands instead of blowing people and things to smaller pieces. Try not having them - and see the Crimea experiment reach all the way to annexing Brussels. It would be nice if you'd all develop some balls and send navy's to the South China sea. Or - maybe their confiscating both the minerals and the trade routes is just OK with you? So - in most other countries - saying that they don't pretend to be neutral? Yet they all claim to be telling the truth - implicitly claiming to be neutral, are they not? Maybe your thought that non-US people are somehow more clever in understanding this? That, in and of itself a bias you/they have absorbed and, making you feel good about yourself/themselves, embraced. I see the rabble protesting (in Euro-Media - the US media ignores way too much) based upon ignorance of the facts - just like everyone else. The problem with this response is that it really requires some real political opinion and naming names - and that's what the Soapbox was for.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Gawd yes - the Common Cold is a set of symptoms caused by a number of viruses, including a couple of Coronaviruses, Rhinoviruses, and so forth. And we still don't have a cure for that ... probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.
+1
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Who ? China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already. France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all. Plus bioterrorism is already a thing.[^] I am not telling that China or anyone has developed in a secret lab the Covid-19, this was clearly proved as a derivation of some animal virus. But this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.
Rage wrote:
China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already. France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
I think there is a lot behind this arguments, but that is enough for a new thread and can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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You put trust in Salvini to tell the truth ?
I'd rather be phishing!
Not really. But that was the first link with the translation to english I found. Sorry. And it helped me to put the first context anyways.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Whilst some point out that some terrible Frankenstein vegetables will come out of it
I am not.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
The old way of modifying plants, by selective breeding, is really too slow with about 7 billion humans eating everything they can get.
Is obvious.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
On the other hand, there can be down-sides just as easily
There are, not only can... Bananas are having tought times because they got modified to loose the seeds, like some kind of grapes. They get multiplied by cutting. There now is a new thing attacking the banana trees, if we loose the trees there will be no more bananas, because there are no more old seeds.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Those against? It's easier to argue against against productivity enhancements when your belly is full. A kind of snobbery.
I am not arguing against the enhancements. I am arguing against the methods of the people.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Aside from those like myself, who consider it a necessity for survival (finally answering your question), there's money to be made.
I know and have told about it in other messages too. And as long there is a business there will be hurry to be first and make the big bucks. And that's part of the problem.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Summary - risk/reward is the answer. As the urgency for solutions increases, risk/reward gets skewed towards risk.
And I really hope that they never prove me right.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Basically, "those in charge" just have to not be stupid. Arguably, too much to ask.
Already confirmed in several times... they do are (most of them, no matter which side) :sigh: Or even worst... they are not stupid, but they don't give a crap on the rest of the world as long as they get their benefit (and I think that might be more dangerous)
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Just one point - true for grapes, potatoes and a huge number of plants that are produced in commercially viable scales: Seedless or not, they are almost always clones. Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries. An interesting genuine example of where your idea about seedless propagation is proven all too true: the Irish Potato Famine - a blight. But every damn potato in the country was grown the way potatoes are always grown - started from little pieces of other potatoes. All had the same genetic makeup. There are a few types of bananas - and one of them is being massacred. All of it happened without GM'ing anything (in a lab) and might be stoppable by the lab work. Learning how to do that should be well perfected before it's urgent. Like sprinklers to help reduce the danger of fires. Science needs to reach into the unknown to learn and discover new things. The only guarantee of safety is to sit back in your cave and hope you can find some fire to keep the carnivores out.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Basically, although not all wrong, your viewpoint is heavily tainted with that Euro point of view. Everyone there (and Canada, too?) is always bitching about the US getting involved in everything - but, with the current administration not getting involved I see the EU and it's cronies waiting to see what the US will do. Maybe if they used their own soldiers and treasure (to pay for these) then they would be seeing the world a bit differently: more cautious about who they support and more willing to act preemptively, instead of pulling yet-another continental Neville Chamberlain. Almost a contradiction. Putin knew full well the EU, etc., wouldn't do anything on their own. Armies are expensive, and most of the time, IF YOU ARE LUCKY, just sitting on their hands instead of blowing people and things to smaller pieces. Try not having them - and see the Crimea experiment reach all the way to annexing Brussels. It would be nice if you'd all develop some balls and send navy's to the South China sea. Or - maybe their confiscating both the minerals and the trade routes is just OK with you? So - in most other countries - saying that they don't pretend to be neutral? Yet they all claim to be telling the truth - implicitly claiming to be neutral, are they not? Maybe your thought that non-US people are somehow more clever in understanding this? That, in and of itself a bias you/they have absorbed and, making you feel good about yourself/themselves, embraced. I see the rabble protesting (in Euro-Media - the US media ignores way too much) based upon ignorance of the facts - just like everyone else. The problem with this response is that it really requires some real political opinion and naming names - and that's what the Soapbox was for.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I agree with you in many things, and that's why EU will at the end fall apart. We are (as much I would like to be wrong) way too many blah blah blah and very few acts. Besides size is a big factor too, EU is a cumulate of small countries that can't compete with USA or China. As an unit we might have a chance to be there in the big players table. But as the EU now is (sume of all the small parts where everyone has to agree before doing something) has nothing to do.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I don't like the idea of killing "pests" on a large scale; China killed sparrows because they were a pest. As a result, insect populations exploded and a famine followed. Still, you're right, we need more food than traditional farming can supply. A good way to minimize the risc is to have both, until GMO is proven to provide more benefit than problems.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that, for example, have a built-in pesticide. It's called a sacrificial field. It's a non-resistant small field (or fields) mixed in with the resistant ones in order to keep the pest's gene-pool non-resistant (or at least for a much longer time). Along with your bird thing: when you kill the snakes, you get the rodents. There was/is a computer game that simulated an ecosystem with three interdependent species: lions, wilddebeast, and grass. Kill off the lions and the wildebeast population explodes, they eat too much grass - and starve. Lots of grass means more wildebeest which can feed more lions that eat more of them. Always pushing back to a balance. Except if someone goes extinct.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that, for example, have a built-in pesticide. It's called a sacrificial field. It's a non-resistant small field (or fields) mixed in with the resistant ones in order to keep the pest's gene-pool non-resistant (or at least for a much longer time). Along with your bird thing: when you kill the snakes, you get the rodents. There was/is a computer game that simulated an ecosystem with three interdependent species: lions, wilddebeast, and grass. Kill off the lions and the wildebeast population explodes, they eat too much grass - and starve. Lots of grass means more wildebeest which can feed more lions that eat more of them. Always pushing back to a balance. Except if someone goes extinct.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that
The "right" way is to never bet on a single horse. You divide your chips. I wouldn't mind a GMO-ban in Europe; our food would become to expensive to export, but pretty certain that supermarkets would offer the choice - and I doubt there'd be a taste-difference.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Just one point - true for grapes, potatoes and a huge number of plants that are produced in commercially viable scales: Seedless or not, they are almost always clones. Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries. An interesting genuine example of where your idea about seedless propagation is proven all too true: the Irish Potato Famine - a blight. But every damn potato in the country was grown the way potatoes are always grown - started from little pieces of other potatoes. All had the same genetic makeup. There are a few types of bananas - and one of them is being massacred. All of it happened without GM'ing anything (in a lab) and might be stoppable by the lab work. Learning how to do that should be well perfected before it's urgent. Like sprinklers to help reduce the danger of fires. Science needs to reach into the unknown to learn and discover new things. The only guarantee of safety is to sit back in your cave and hope you can find some fire to keep the carnivores out.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.
I disagree in this. As a kid, in the fields surrounding the town where my mother was born, there were at least 5 different kind of grapes. Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees). The canary islands had a local banana unique in the world. Not sure if they still have it, but if yes... then it is going to be very few units. The other kind had a bigger relation of productivity per m², the choice done by the people is obvious.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that
The "right" way is to never bet on a single horse. You divide your chips. I wouldn't mind a GMO-ban in Europe; our food would become to expensive to export, but pretty certain that supermarkets would offer the choice - and I doubt there'd be a taste-difference.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Tell me - could you resist a tomato with capsicum genes built in? I call it "The Salsato" - salsa vine ripened and freshly picked.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Nelek wrote:
Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?
You mean like animal and plant "husbandry", where: • Pigs are bred to be fatter and fatter, until they can barely move? • Dogs are bred to the point where they can't give birth without human intervention? • Apples are bred for sweetness, to the point where they're basically sugar water, and less healthy than a bag of crisps (Leftpond "chips")? • Wheat is bred for yield, to the point where 40% of people have at least a mild allergy to it? Nah, it's not evil. It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I am not expecting it at all. I have already used the money and the human stupidity in some other messages below.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Tell me - could you resist a tomato with capsicum genes built in? I call it "The Salsato" - salsa vine ripened and freshly picked.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'm making pizza today. Would be awesome on it, no? If it can prove its value, it will sell, simple as that. Until that moment, I'd prefer for the world to not switch en masse.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.
I disagree in this. As a kid, in the fields surrounding the town where my mother was born, there were at least 5 different kind of grapes. Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees). The canary islands had a local banana unique in the world. Not sure if they still have it, but if yes... then it is going to be very few units. The other kind had a bigger relation of productivity per m², the choice done by the people is obvious.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).
Nonetheless, before or after, all clones. That's the point. Complaining about seedless varieties is not a valid argument in the world of commercial farming. Not unless you don't mind someone, somewhere, starving. It's only useful in a "natural world" and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding. Worrying about what-if? There's always a "what if?" - but there's also a "What if we don't?" that could be worse . . . just a little bit later on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Maximilien wrote:
You put trust in Salvini to tell the truth ?
As much as I'd trust Berlusconi with a loan or Cicciolina to keep her clothes on.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Nelek wrote:
Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).
Nonetheless, before or after, all clones. That's the point. Complaining about seedless varieties is not a valid argument in the world of commercial farming. Not unless you don't mind someone, somewhere, starving. It's only useful in a "natural world" and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding. Worrying about what-if? There's always a "what if?" - but there's also a "What if we don't?" that could be worse . . . just a little bit later on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding.
We will take care of that ourselves sooner or later. The big questions are "when?" and "will be only us? Or will we crash the world defintivelly in the process?"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
