Masks either work or they do not work
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If airbags work, why have seat belts? If seatbelts work, why have airbags? If both work, why have brakes?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Let's take the dodge'em cars out of the amusement parks, and put them on the roads, where they belong!
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As the other two have said: it's a balancing act: Masks do work - the research shows that - but they aren't the same as Social Distancing. Masks are altruistic: they protect others from the mask wearer (who may not even know they are infectious). SD protects both the wearer and the others, to an extent, but can be defeated by poor ventilation and air flow. Very fine infected water droplets can "hang" in relatively still air and be breathed in as you move down an "empty aisle" for example. My wearing a mask reduces the "fine mist" of virus particles you might walk through later, even if you are at a good social distance. It isn't a "choice" issue in either sense: you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection; you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection;
Exactly.
OriginalGriff wrote:
you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection;
Exactly.
OriginalGriff wrote:
you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
Exactly.
You know what I said: taking it out of context is like taking bible bits out of context: two can play at that game!
ZurdoDev wrote:
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
And just perhaps if we hadn't, it wouldn't have killed over half million people already?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote:
you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection;
Exactly.
OriginalGriff wrote:
you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Quote:
Exactly.
Exactly what? Are you saying because it doesn't work 100% of the time we shouldn't bother? That's just plain stupidity - unfortunately there are a lot of stupid people out there that think this way. Social distancing is the same, it's not 100% (it couldn't be) but it's better than nothing. We have forgotten the most effective protection (both for others and oneself), stay at home - still not 100% because of those disease-ridden delivery guys (sorry delivery guys, you are doing a great job, just making a point). As OG said, it's a statistics game.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection;
Exactly.
OriginalGriff wrote:
you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Whether to close an establishment, or enforce the wearing of masks and social distancing within it, should be up to the owner of each establishment. People can then decide whether its rules are acceptable to them by choosing to enter the establishment or not. Instead we have one-size-fits-all solutions mandated by the usual control freaks who have no skin in the game.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
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As the other two have said: it's a balancing act: Masks do work - the research shows that - but they aren't the same as Social Distancing. Masks are altruistic: they protect others from the mask wearer (who may not even know they are infectious). SD protects both the wearer and the others, to an extent, but can be defeated by poor ventilation and air flow. Very fine infected water droplets can "hang" in relatively still air and be breathed in as you move down an "empty aisle" for example. My wearing a mask reduces the "fine mist" of virus particles you might walk through later, even if you are at a good social distance. It isn't a "choice" issue in either sense: you can't rely on one or the other for reasonable protection; you shouldn't be allowed to choose to walk round infecting others with a potentially lethal desease.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
Masks do work - the research shows that
The problem I have is that I also hear scientists speak out and say that there is no conclusive research that shows that in the general population masks have any effect. The UK government does not reveal the discussions or evidence on which they make decisions. We had previously been told that in the general population masks have no effect, then suddenly we are informed that we need to wear masks. What is the evidence that drove this sudden and radical change of policy?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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ZurdoDev wrote:
Exactly.
You know what I said: taking it out of context is like taking bible bits out of context: two can play at that game!
ZurdoDev wrote:
Why not? We were allowed to prior to Covid-19.
And just perhaps if we hadn't, it wouldn't have killed over half million people already?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
taking it out of context
How did I take it out of context? I agreed with you. :omg: Should I have disagreed? :confused:
OriginalGriff wrote:
it wouldn't have killed over half million people already?
Are you suggesting masks should be worn forever now? Because there always has been and always will be the chance of you carrying a lethal disease around. It's a serious question.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Quote:
Exactly.
Exactly what? Are you saying because it doesn't work 100% of the time we shouldn't bother? That's just plain stupidity - unfortunately there are a lot of stupid people out there that think this way. Social distancing is the same, it's not 100% (it couldn't be) but it's better than nothing. We have forgotten the most effective protection (both for others and oneself), stay at home - still not 100% because of those disease-ridden delivery guys (sorry delivery guys, you are doing a great job, just making a point). As OG said, it's a statistics game.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
� Forogar � wrote:
Exactly what? Are you saying because it doesn't work 100% of the time we shouldn't bother?
No. I agreed. :laugh: :laugh: You people read too much into what I say. Stop adding your own bias in. My original point was that masks are not the "end-all" that many have claimed they were. And to enforce social distancing proves that masks aren't the "end-all". That's all.
� Forogar � wrote:
stay at home
We had a coworker come to work for an entire day with symptoms. Her manager finally realized it and sent her home. She tested positive. No one else in the office got it even though she likely had it on her for at least a couple of days. On a scale of 1-10 of apocolyptic viruses, this thing is a 2. It's just not as bad as everyone wants to make it. If people are freaking out this much about a 2, what will happen when we have a 7 or 8? People will die just from anxiety. :doh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Whether to close an establishment, or enforce the wearing of masks and social distancing within it, should be up to the owner of each establishment. People can then decide whether its rules are acceptable to them by choosing to enter the establishment or not. Instead we have one-size-fits-all solutions mandated by the usual control freaks who have no skin in the game.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
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Dan Neely wrote:
If airbags work, why have seat belts?
Because seat belts don't work 100% of the time.
Dan Neely wrote:
If seatbelts work, why have airbags?
Because airbags don't work 100% of the time.
Dan Neely wrote:
If both work, why have brakes?
Analogy fail. :laugh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Masks do work - the research shows that
The problem I have is that I also hear scientists speak out and say that there is no conclusive research that shows that in the general population masks have any effect. The UK government does not reveal the discussions or evidence on which they make decisions. We had previously been told that in the general population masks have no effect, then suddenly we are informed that we need to wear masks. What is the evidence that drove this sudden and radical change of policy?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
GuyThiebaut wrote:
What is the evidence that drove this sudden and radical change of policy?
The politician's syllogism: We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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So replace "airbags" with "face masks" and replace "seat belts" with "social distancing" and you have just answered your own question.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
only if done properly.
What does that even mean? How do you properly social distance? 6'? So, 6' is safe but 5'11" is not safe? What is a proper mask? Because most masks people are wearing are not that effective.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
You are obviously part of the problem.
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Correct. But I didn't have a question.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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You are obviously part of the problem.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
You are obviously part of the problem.
:laugh: :laugh: You are probably right but I'd love to hear why you think that. Otherwise, you prove the point of my post that everyone is being driven by pure emotion and no logic right now.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Well, you got me there... I guess I read that you were suggesting it's proof that masks don't work, when I think it only proves that masks don't work *100%* of the time.
musefan wrote:
that masks don't work, when I think it only proves that masks don't work 100% of the time.
Ya.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Nearly every business seems to be requiring masks now but what I find interesting is that they are also enforcing social distancing rules as well. It seems that if you are saying we still need to stay away from each other even with masks on you're really saying that masks don't work. Too much emotion involved in so many decisions these days. #BringBackLogic
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
ZurdoDev wrote:
It seems that if you are saying we still need to stay away from each other even with masks on you're really saying that masks don't work.
Your logic is flawed. Masks work; not to protect the one who wears it, but the people around it. During surgery, the doctor wears a mask to protect you, not him. And even if you were under the assumption that masks protect you; there's this advice to not shake hands and not to touch your face - breathing in the virus is not the only way it enters the body. I keep hearing the argument that masks don't work, even from the government here. So we have no requirement to wear them, while the countries around us made them mandatory.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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ZurdoDev wrote:
It seems that if you are saying we still need to stay away from each other even with masks on you're really saying that masks don't work.
Your logic is flawed. Masks work; not to protect the one who wears it, but the people around it. During surgery, the doctor wears a mask to protect you, not him. And even if you were under the assumption that masks protect you; there's this advice to not shake hands and not to touch your face - breathing in the virus is not the only way it enters the body. I keep hearing the argument that masks don't work, even from the government here. So we have no requirement to wear them, while the countries around us made them mandatory.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
You misunderstood my point. Masks help. But they do not "work" as a solution, which many people have claimed masks are a solution.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Nearly every business seems to be requiring masks now but what I find interesting is that they are also enforcing social distancing rules as well. It seems that if you are saying we still need to stay away from each other even with masks on you're really saying that masks don't work. Too much emotion involved in so many decisions these days. #BringBackLogic
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
#BringBackDaysBeforePoundSignsWerePutBeforeGoofyPhrases
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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#BringBackDaysBeforePoundSignsWerePutBeforeGoofyPhrases
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
