UK Track and Trace system
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5teveH wrote:
Firing at a few politicians and senior civil servants, may not completely solve the problem - but it would certainly improve the mood of the nation. :laugh:
FTFY!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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(Note: disclaimer is at the end) There was a blip in reported covid cases in the UK as the system used to report the data to the government systems didn't work for a day so the results were rolled into the next batch of reported data. The cause of the blip was that the people collecting the results sent the data to the government systems using XLS files and due to the increasing number of cases the data exceeded the capacity for XLS files so they had to rejig the system to batch the data instead of putting it all in one file. As software engineers we can all agree there are issues here but as we're not privy to the inners of the system we can only guess at why certain decisions were made. If I was sending raw data to a third party system with (presumably) no API then I'd choose CSV files. However if the data was intended for human consumption then Excel is probably a decent solution. Rather than just raw numbers in cells it can have descriptive meta info at the top such as the source of the data, date it was taken on and so on, then the data itself in rows below. Another reason they might use XLS files is that it's easier to handle quotes, commas and other funny data, letting the proprietary format handle those issues, and while there are existing CSV frameworks that support that data off the shelf you have to bear in mind the time pressures to get this system working and the potential red tape etc in using a project written by some random that they found on github in a government system. Regardless of the reasons XLS files were used there were obvious failings in that no-one thought to test the capacity of the system so too many assumptions and no thinking about the long-game. So yeah there are flaws here obviously. What is annoying me though is the way this has been reported and reacted to on places like twitter, where you normally find nothing but well-informed, intellectually honest, non-partisan debate. 99.99% of posts I have seen about this have been of the same ilk, obviously written by people who don't understand the tech. The prevailing narrative being pushed is that the data is stored in Excel files rather than a database. However if that was the case then the data that was missed on the fateful day would probably be lost forever. The fact that it was produced later on in multiple files rather than one demonstrates that the data is indeed stored elsewhere and simply packed in XLS files for distribution to interested parties. No developer, no matter how poor, would really suggest to
I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise so they hit the column limit of 16,384 instead of the row limit of 1,048,576. But the real problem is everyone blaming a "computer glitch", rather than explaining that the people writing the code misread a QA answer. :laugh:
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They could just share the Excel file with everyone and ask us to add our name to it if we get sick. Our government is so incompetent I'm actually quite suprised they didn't do this.
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I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise so they hit the column limit of 16,384 instead of the row limit of 1,048,576. But the real problem is everyone blaming a "computer glitch", rather than explaining that the people writing the code misread a QA answer. :laugh:
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
But the real problem is everyone blaming a "computer glitch", rather than explaining that the people writing the code misread a QA answer. :laugh:
I wish that was a joke ... :sigh:
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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The "funny" thing is that finding fifteen thousand plus new corona cases reduces mortality (from covid-19) in the UK. That is good, isn't it? At least that is the way some people see it, not considering mortality by the number of people who die, or the how large percentage of the population that dies, but by the percentage of people who are registered as being infected that dies. For a given death count, the more cases of infection that you register, the lower the percentage of people dying from it. Note that a country that doesn't count cases at all, zero reported cases, would have an infinite mortality rate even with a single corona death.
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Which is exactly why there was hysteria in the UK early on; because testing was for a while effectively only being done on the very sick, the mortality rate was vastly above other countries.
Exactly. Yet... Even looking at deaths/1M population UK is quite high. Not quite as high as six countries on the other side of the pond, yet twelve times as high as Norway, ten times that of Finland. So the UK is hit quite hard by the Corona virus, even though not as hard as "registered cases / deaths" seems to suggest.
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I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise so they hit the column limit of 16,384 instead of the row limit of 1,048,576. But the real problem is everyone blaming a "computer glitch", rather than explaining that the people writing the code misread a QA answer. :laugh:
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Exactly. Yet... Even looking at deaths/1M population UK is quite high. Not quite as high as six countries on the other side of the pond, yet twelve times as high as Norway, ten times that of Finland. So the UK is hit quite hard by the Corona virus, even though not as hard as "registered cases / deaths" seems to suggest.
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5teveH wrote:
Firing at a few politicians and senior civil servants, may not completely solve the problem - but it would certainly improve the mood of the nation. :laugh:
FTFY!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Might depend on how well you aim.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
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I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise so they hit the column limit of 16,384 instead of the row limit of 1,048,576. But the real problem is everyone blaming a "computer glitch", rather than explaining that the people writing the code misread a QA answer. :laugh:
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise
I also read that and considered including it in the OP. I think it's one of the clearer bits of misinformation, I mean who would seriously propose that as a solution? Even the worst of the worst in QA would suggest a new sheet per case rather than a new column.
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Might depend on how well you aim.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello Never stop dreaming - Freddie Kruger
Or how much ammo you have available! ;)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise
I also read that and considered including it in the OP. I think it's one of the clearer bits of misinformation, I mean who would seriously propose that as a solution? Even the worst of the worst in QA would suggest a new sheet per case rather than a new column.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
I read somewhere that the Excel data was stored columnwise rather than rowwise
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Even the worst of the worst in QA would suggest a new sheet per case rather than a new column
Also, XLS only supports 256 cols (A to IV) {and, IIRC, there was a max of 256 sheets as well?}, so it would have to be rows.
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(Note: disclaimer is at the end) There was a blip in reported covid cases in the UK as the system used to report the data to the government systems didn't work for a day so the results were rolled into the next batch of reported data. The cause of the blip was that the people collecting the results sent the data to the government systems using XLS files and due to the increasing number of cases the data exceeded the capacity for XLS files so they had to rejig the system to batch the data instead of putting it all in one file. As software engineers we can all agree there are issues here but as we're not privy to the inners of the system we can only guess at why certain decisions were made. If I was sending raw data to a third party system with (presumably) no API then I'd choose CSV files. However if the data was intended for human consumption then Excel is probably a decent solution. Rather than just raw numbers in cells it can have descriptive meta info at the top such as the source of the data, date it was taken on and so on, then the data itself in rows below. Another reason they might use XLS files is that it's easier to handle quotes, commas and other funny data, letting the proprietary format handle those issues, and while there are existing CSV frameworks that support that data off the shelf you have to bear in mind the time pressures to get this system working and the potential red tape etc in using a project written by some random that they found on github in a government system. Regardless of the reasons XLS files were used there were obvious failings in that no-one thought to test the capacity of the system so too many assumptions and no thinking about the long-game. So yeah there are flaws here obviously. What is annoying me though is the way this has been reported and reacted to on places like twitter, where you normally find nothing but well-informed, intellectually honest, non-partisan debate. 99.99% of posts I have seen about this have been of the same ilk, obviously written by people who don't understand the tech. The prevailing narrative being pushed is that the data is stored in Excel files rather than a database. However if that was the case then the data that was missed on the fateful day would probably be lost forever. The fact that it was produced later on in multiple files rather than one demonstrates that the data is indeed stored elsewhere and simply packed in XLS files for distribution to interested parties. No developer, no matter how poor, would really suggest to
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
It's just maddening seeing so much speculation and ill-informed opinions posted as facts,
Welcome to the internet. :laugh: :laugh:
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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(Note: disclaimer is at the end) There was a blip in reported covid cases in the UK as the system used to report the data to the government systems didn't work for a day so the results were rolled into the next batch of reported data. The cause of the blip was that the people collecting the results sent the data to the government systems using XLS files and due to the increasing number of cases the data exceeded the capacity for XLS files so they had to rejig the system to batch the data instead of putting it all in one file. As software engineers we can all agree there are issues here but as we're not privy to the inners of the system we can only guess at why certain decisions were made. If I was sending raw data to a third party system with (presumably) no API then I'd choose CSV files. However if the data was intended for human consumption then Excel is probably a decent solution. Rather than just raw numbers in cells it can have descriptive meta info at the top such as the source of the data, date it was taken on and so on, then the data itself in rows below. Another reason they might use XLS files is that it's easier to handle quotes, commas and other funny data, letting the proprietary format handle those issues, and while there are existing CSV frameworks that support that data off the shelf you have to bear in mind the time pressures to get this system working and the potential red tape etc in using a project written by some random that they found on github in a government system. Regardless of the reasons XLS files were used there were obvious failings in that no-one thought to test the capacity of the system so too many assumptions and no thinking about the long-game. So yeah there are flaws here obviously. What is annoying me though is the way this has been reported and reacted to on places like twitter, where you normally find nothing but well-informed, intellectually honest, non-partisan debate. 99.99% of posts I have seen about this have been of the same ilk, obviously written by people who don't understand the tech. The prevailing narrative being pushed is that the data is stored in Excel files rather than a database. However if that was the case then the data that was missed on the fateful day would probably be lost forever. The fact that it was produced later on in multiple files rather than one demonstrates that the data is indeed stored elsewhere and simply packed in XLS files for distribution to interested parties. No developer, no matter how poor, would really suggest to
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
a rather public failing in software system
Was it even a "system" as such? Or was it a work experience student who just didn't know any better?
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(Note: disclaimer is at the end) There was a blip in reported covid cases in the UK as the system used to report the data to the government systems didn't work for a day so the results were rolled into the next batch of reported data. The cause of the blip was that the people collecting the results sent the data to the government systems using XLS files and due to the increasing number of cases the data exceeded the capacity for XLS files so they had to rejig the system to batch the data instead of putting it all in one file. As software engineers we can all agree there are issues here but as we're not privy to the inners of the system we can only guess at why certain decisions were made. If I was sending raw data to a third party system with (presumably) no API then I'd choose CSV files. However if the data was intended for human consumption then Excel is probably a decent solution. Rather than just raw numbers in cells it can have descriptive meta info at the top such as the source of the data, date it was taken on and so on, then the data itself in rows below. Another reason they might use XLS files is that it's easier to handle quotes, commas and other funny data, letting the proprietary format handle those issues, and while there are existing CSV frameworks that support that data off the shelf you have to bear in mind the time pressures to get this system working and the potential red tape etc in using a project written by some random that they found on github in a government system. Regardless of the reasons XLS files were used there were obvious failings in that no-one thought to test the capacity of the system so too many assumptions and no thinking about the long-game. So yeah there are flaws here obviously. What is annoying me though is the way this has been reported and reacted to on places like twitter, where you normally find nothing but well-informed, intellectually honest, non-partisan debate. 99.99% of posts I have seen about this have been of the same ilk, obviously written by people who don't understand the tech. The prevailing narrative being pushed is that the data is stored in Excel files rather than a database. However if that was the case then the data that was missed on the fateful day would probably be lost forever. The fact that it was produced later on in multiple files rather than one demonstrates that the data is indeed stored elsewhere and simply packed in XLS files for distribution to interested parties. No developer, no matter how poor, would really suggest to
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
one of the issues with twitter is that there is no single person or thread to respond to, it is just a wall of people all posting the same thing with nothing you can do to counter it.
I read through the whole thing, and honestly what I got out of it is that your problem isn't with Excel or the reasons it was used; it's all with Twitter. Let me ask you this: Why are you getting the likes of Twitter bother you? To me Twitter simply doesn't exist. I'm not posting anything on Twitter. I'm not following anyone on Twitter. I don't have an account on Twitter. And I've never felt like I've missed out on anything. Let the people it was designed for waste their time on Twitter. Just don't get involved yourself. Twitter's not a thing. Nobody needs it. While you're at it, don't let Facebook get under your skin either.
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(Note: disclaimer is at the end) There was a blip in reported covid cases in the UK as the system used to report the data to the government systems didn't work for a day so the results were rolled into the next batch of reported data. The cause of the blip was that the people collecting the results sent the data to the government systems using XLS files and due to the increasing number of cases the data exceeded the capacity for XLS files so they had to rejig the system to batch the data instead of putting it all in one file. As software engineers we can all agree there are issues here but as we're not privy to the inners of the system we can only guess at why certain decisions were made. If I was sending raw data to a third party system with (presumably) no API then I'd choose CSV files. However if the data was intended for human consumption then Excel is probably a decent solution. Rather than just raw numbers in cells it can have descriptive meta info at the top such as the source of the data, date it was taken on and so on, then the data itself in rows below. Another reason they might use XLS files is that it's easier to handle quotes, commas and other funny data, letting the proprietary format handle those issues, and while there are existing CSV frameworks that support that data off the shelf you have to bear in mind the time pressures to get this system working and the potential red tape etc in using a project written by some random that they found on github in a government system. Regardless of the reasons XLS files were used there were obvious failings in that no-one thought to test the capacity of the system so too many assumptions and no thinking about the long-game. So yeah there are flaws here obviously. What is annoying me though is the way this has been reported and reacted to on places like twitter, where you normally find nothing but well-informed, intellectually honest, non-partisan debate. 99.99% of posts I have seen about this have been of the same ilk, obviously written by people who don't understand the tech. The prevailing narrative being pushed is that the data is stored in Excel files rather than a database. However if that was the case then the data that was missed on the fateful day would probably be lost forever. The fact that it was produced later on in multiple files rather than one demonstrates that the data is indeed stored elsewhere and simply packed in XLS files for distribution to interested parties. No developer, no matter how poor, would really suggest to
"Exceeded the capacity for XLS" files. Sounds like management-speak. (If we blame "Office", no one will be the wiser) (The first time one sees a spread-sheet, it's usually beyond one's "capacity" to handle effectively).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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That is a valid point - but maybe not by the population density of the countries as a whole. Vast forests or high mountain plains where no one lives contribute little to make people respect social distancing. At the bus, in the shops and streets, they have little effect - and those are places where Corona easily spreads. But: Norwegians/Finns are well known for favoring independence, bordering to being loners. "Everyone" not (yet) living in their own detached house wish they did, rather than cramming together in tiny flats in twenty floor towers. Each kid in the family having his/her own room is a must. Lots of people go on vacation to get away from other people, up in the mountain, or in a sailing boat. To be a true modern guy, you must have your own car; taking the bus is for the lower classes (and there is not much of that. There is no strong tradition for getting together after work in a crowded pub, or for huge all-neighborhood parties in the streets or gardens. Essentially, we have practiced social distancing for fifty years. Much social activity takes place in more closed groups with people you know - not much mingling qwith strangers that might bring the infection into the group. Compared to many other countries, we practice very little embracing, hugging, kissing... (I guess that is more pronounced in countries such as Italy, Spain, and France; I believe UK is more at the 'shaking hands' level of social interaction.) This goes even within the family. For the last thirty years Norway has been more Catholic than the Pope (the Pope here being US "morals"): Direct skin contact beyond shaking hands is not directly forbidden by law, but you might think so if you observe people. I think a mother hugging her own child is acceptable up to age five; for the father, it stops at age two, roughly speaking. We have had a number of outbreaks lately, the majority were students moving out from home and using their newly won freedom to behave more like Italians than like Norwegians :-) - that is an old tradition: When you go to universities, you let loose ... for a while. They soon enough revert to The Norwegian/Finish Style. University freshmen aside, the Norwegian/Finish 'loner' style probably contributes far more to the low spreading of Corona, rater than vast forests and mountain plains.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
one of the issues with twitter is that there is no single person or thread to respond to, it is just a wall of people all posting the same thing with nothing you can do to counter it.
I read through the whole thing, and honestly what I got out of it is that your problem isn't with Excel or the reasons it was used; it's all with Twitter. Let me ask you this: Why are you getting the likes of Twitter bother you? To me Twitter simply doesn't exist. I'm not posting anything on Twitter. I'm not following anyone on Twitter. I don't have an account on Twitter. And I've never felt like I've missed out on anything. Let the people it was designed for waste their time on Twitter. Just don't get involved yourself. Twitter's not a thing. Nobody needs it. While you're at it, don't let Facebook get under your skin either.
I get what you're saying, but the reason it bothers me is that today's media climate, unfortunately, is twitter despite only a minority of people using it. Twitter drives what you see in the news, ergo what the general public sees. With so much misinformation on the platform going utterly unchecked it is going to influence what stories are written about it. At the risk of going into soapbox territory we all know that misinformation is politically motivated, and even more egregious is that this misinformation can be spread only because the biased nature of the platforms. If you went on and spread misinformation "the other way" it would be deleted and your account suspended. So these platforms are creating a downward spiral of misinformation. TLDR; It bothers me that people are wrong on the internet :)
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
a rather public failing in software system
Was it even a "system" as such? Or was it a work experience student who just didn't know any better?
Thanks for proving my point :sigh:
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I get what you're saying, but the reason it bothers me is that today's media climate, unfortunately, is twitter despite only a minority of people using it. Twitter drives what you see in the news, ergo what the general public sees. With so much misinformation on the platform going utterly unchecked it is going to influence what stories are written about it. At the risk of going into soapbox territory we all know that misinformation is politically motivated, and even more egregious is that this misinformation can be spread only because the biased nature of the platforms. If you went on and spread misinformation "the other way" it would be deleted and your account suspended. So these platforms are creating a downward spiral of misinformation. TLDR; It bothers me that people are wrong on the internet :)
