If I find another programming language easier should I stay with it instead?
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I think this, and your other responses, suggest what you are really good at is talking about what you think you are learning ... rather than really learning. To reach mid-level mastery [1] of any of C, C++, C#, Java, for most mere mortals beginning to program is going to take a year, or more, of hard work. The tendency to imagine you know more than you know is as dangerous as imagining you know what you don't know. When someone as gifted and experienced as Richard MacCutchan gives you advice, you should take it ! That's great that you find C compelling, but, is it possible you are motivated by a desire to avoid Java which may be necessary for your studies ? [1] I would define this as being able to create an application that runs on a specific OS, on specific hardware, has a UI, and does something useful
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
:(( Yes, you are probably right. I think Java GUI is scary :(( I'm not there yet... so I'm running away from it :(( But I told myself today that I have to practice on focus on what I have to do. No more conslolation languages that make me feel like I can program something while I'm still stack in java Swing :(( Tommorow...:suss: Java Swing I'm comming :suss:
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If you've already coded in Java, C# will feel somewhat "familiar", but I think of it as more streamlined and more cohesive than Java. It's just more ... flowy to code in. The hardest thing about it is getting used to MicrosoftPascalCasingSchemesInTheDnf Like it's IPAddress, but DnsEntry. (if an acronym is 3 letters or more, it gets title case treatment)
Real programmers use butterflies
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That's probably why. Buy Accelerated C++. You'll be glad you did. It will make you a better coder. It did me!
Real programmers use butterflies
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In the begining I would like to thank you for all your responses to my late topic on job :) I read them all. Now I have another question. I know I'm whining too much... :~ You probably think I'm acting like a prima donna. So, I heard some advices from the other programmers that If find a programming language hard, i shouldn't give up on programming and maybe try another. So I did it. About one month or two ago I started to learn c++. And immediately everything started to click. I even began to understand some java concepts that I couldn't get before. A week ago I read like about 600 pages of Deitel book on C++ like it was an interesting novel. Now I'm almost on the same productivity level as my java just in one week. I don't use pointers yet and don't allocate memory either, sometimes I have to check out the syntax but I can make simple console games(I struggle, i didn't finish any yet, but I can ;P ). I bought Bjarne Stroustup's book and I love it... I just want to learn more and program, but today I thought... damn.. I have to stop. I have assignments on java for school and I'm late. They will kick my out of college so I thought, I focus only on java. I thought: "It's a good language, it has great support for GUI, I can get job". So I woke up in the morning and thought: "I will read those java books with the same passion!" and I opened my java book... and that's it.... I can't go any further. I don't know if the problem is books themselves, are books on java really that horribly written or is it a language itself? I simply can get why and when I should use interfaces, why should I bother studying those (100 * infinity) libraries when I can write programs using just few. What is the purpose of abstract class, inner class, biolerplate code here, boilerplate code there... Plenty of lines just to print "Hello World!". I can't stand it anymore :(( Smart people, what should I do?
When I was in school we had assignments in languages I just didn't get and furthermore knew I would never use, those I learned enough to complete the assignments. The ones that I did get and knew I would use I studied relentlessly until I became fluent.
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27. JaxCoder.com
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Ah, I wasn't aware of that fine print. Well I always do implement my
ICloneableas private and implement anICloneable<T>type instead which (in my code) is always a deep copy. And "clone" really should imply that anyway. And technically, what actually constitutes a "deep" copy is always up to the caller anyway. Some fields in a deep copy may indeed be shallow copied, like if the object uses string pooling or something, and I find Microsoft's docs to be characteristically trite on such matters. Frankly, I know if I call ICloneable I'm getting the counterpart to MemberwiseClone. That implies a deep copy. And as I said, what that is is always up to the caller in the end anyway. What's expected is a "copy" of the object, but again, when you throw things like pooling into the mix, what that means might be different than what you expect.Real programmers use butterflies
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I wish newer C++ would provide an auto member-wise copy constructor if you explicitly asked for it. I don't know what that would look like though.
foo(const foo& rhs) auto;
or something One thing that's nice about C# is it does that for you. True if you're not used to it, ICloneable seems awkward but everything in the CLI/CLR including foreach enumerability is exposed through interfaces so it makes sense. At best C# could have added a language feature (syntactic sugar) to wrap it. Personally I find ICloneable intuitive after a learning curve, which is better than say, SQL.
Real programmers use butterflies
Well, that's problem for me with those modern languages that I'm still learning and they do stuff for me. At my college we are not allowed to use libraries that's why it's a blessing to read c++ books because they teach how to do stuff from scratch. I need that for my school :( Of course if I start working as a professional I will be gladluy using those libraries, but today they are not so helpful because I'm not allowed to use them anyway so they just make me confused X|
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When I was in school we had assignments in languages I just didn't get and furthermore knew I would never use, those I learned enough to complete the assignments. The ones that I did get and knew I would use I studied relentlessly until I became fluent.
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27. JaxCoder.com
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:(( Yes, you are probably right. I think Java GUI is scary :(( I'm not there yet... so I'm running away from it :(( But I told myself today that I have to practice on focus on what I have to do. No more conslolation languages that make me feel like I can program something while I'm still stack in java Swing :(( Tommorow...:suss: Java Swing I'm comming :suss:
Just do it ... swoosh ... :rolleyes: Start with the simplest controls ... button, textbox ... learn how to select them, instantiate them, set their properties, and write code that responds/listens to their events.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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I was thinking about doing the same, but java is the language that I will be using. Like java, c# and java script are what all jobs are about where I live, so I have to force myself and start to love it X|
Gotcha, gotta do whatcha gotta do. Good luck
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27. JaxCoder.com
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Well, that's problem for me with those modern languages that I'm still learning and they do stuff for me. At my college we are not allowed to use libraries that's why it's a blessing to read c++ books because they teach how to do stuff from scratch. I need that for my school :( Of course if I start working as a professional I will be gladluy using those libraries, but today they are not so helpful because I'm not allowed to use them anyway so they just make me confused X|
well if you're using C++ appropriately there's some amount of "libraries" that are part of the language and that mess is known as The Standard Template Library or The STL. It contains things like std::string, std::map, and std::vector which you should really be using rather than rolling your own. I say they are part of the language because, while not tightly integrated like VBs runtimes for example, they were designed with and to be used as part of programming in C++ I look at it this way. C++ is the language + the STL. The reason they aren't all rolled together is so you can modify it.
Real programmers use butterflies
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well if you're using C++ appropriately there's some amount of "libraries" that are part of the language and that mess is known as The Standard Template Library or The STL. It contains things like std::string, std::map, and std::vector which you should really be using rather than rolling your own. I say they are part of the language because, while not tightly integrated like VBs runtimes for example, they were designed with and to be used as part of programming in C++ I look at it this way. C++ is the language + the STL. The reason they aren't all rolled together is so you can modify it.
Real programmers use butterflies
Yeah that I can use ;P At my college we can only use some basic Java libraries thatprovides for example String, equals and so on but Collections like arraylists and algorithms are totaly forbidden so I'm glad I could learn how to make some of those forbidden stuff from scratch by reading c++ books.
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Programming languages are part of the toolbox of a good programmer, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. A good programmer will try to use the programming language most appropriate to the job. For example, most programmers would not write a program to calculate orbits in COBOL, nor would they write an interactive game in Fortran (though it is possible to do both). A good programmer will know more than one language, and will be able to write code in the differing styles that these languages impose, e.g. procedural for C and C++, Object-Oriented for C++ and Java, etc. The idea is that you should be able to match the project to the appropriate language. Many programmers have had a long and successful career knowing only one language (for example the COBOL programmers who started in the '60s). Today, you are likely to migrate between projects with differing requirements, and cannot afford to limit yourself in such a manner. In addition to your Computer Science studies (data structures, algorithms, etc.), I would recommend trying to learn at least one popular language a year - C, C++, Java, Python, etc. You do not have to become a master of the languages, just know how to program in them and where to find the more advanced stuff. This will help you when you have to look for a job. Programming is a challenging career, but it can be very rewarding to the right person. Good luck!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
:thumbsup:
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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Gotcha, gotta do whatcha gotta do. Good luck
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27. JaxCoder.com
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Yeah that I can use ;P At my college we can only use some basic Java libraries thatprovides for example String, equals and so on but Collections like arraylists and algorithms are totaly forbidden so I'm glad I could learn how to make some of those forbidden stuff from scratch by reading c++ books.
C++ has a ton of "collections" built into the STL. They're called containers though, but it's the same thing. Way more than Java or C# in fact. C++ has one of the best container packages I've seen for an imperative language. Those books should be teaching you those. Hopefully your professors get around to it too because if you don't know them, you don't know C++.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Just do it ... swoosh ... :rolleyes: Start with the simplest controls ... button, textbox ... learn how to select them, instantiate them, set their properties, and write code that responds/listens to their events.
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
Yeah I already started it but the hardest thing is to program it in a way that separates the GUI from program's logic, like write it in a separate class and put it everything together... Than I start to make a mess.. things stop to work or some parts and ... oh It's chaos :(( But tommorow, I will not leave the computer until it's done. I'm gonna fight :suss:
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C++ has a ton of "collections" built into the STL. They're called containers though, but it's the same thing. Way more than Java or C# in fact. C++ has one of the best container packages I've seen for an imperative language. Those books should be teaching you those. Hopefully your professors get around to it too because if you don't know them, you don't know C++.
Real programmers use butterflies
I only learn Java and PHP at my collegaue. I started to learn C++ on my own, because I wanted to read c++ books because they were more interesting. But still... Java relies mostly on libraries... but we are not allowed to use them. I mean most of them. Only arrays, scanner you get what I mean and of course GUI :( They want us to do all the algorithms from scratch, even in whole applications. Maybe they want to train our brains to be better programmers that way...
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I wish newer C++ would provide an auto member-wise copy constructor if you explicitly asked for it. I don't know what that would look like though.
foo(const foo& rhs) auto;
or something One thing that's nice about C# is it does that for you. True if you're not used to it, ICloneable seems awkward but everything in the CLI/CLR including foreach enumerability is exposed through interfaces so it makes sense. At best C# could have added a language feature (syntactic sugar) to wrap it. Personally I find ICloneable intuitive after a learning curve, which is better than say, SQL.
Real programmers use butterflies
Usually I'm not that control freak ;) But for me it would be better that in case a copy constructor should be implemented explicitely. Ok, probably about 75% of my code would not compile anymore because I went the lazy way :laugh: [Edit] And as a consequence of my statement above one needs to specify every property explicitely wheter it is handled/or not in the copy constructor. I'm sure I would hate myself if something like this comes :doh: about me :-D
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question Chemists have exactly one rule: there are only exceptions
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Because you can quite easily write a procedural program in C++. With real OOP languages (Java, C# etc.) you cannot do anything without creating a class first.
Only because 'one can do it' is not really an explanation. In c++ you can do things like "#define private public" in .net you can access everything using reflection.
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question Chemists have exactly one rule: there are only exceptions
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Only because 'one can do it' is not really an explanation. In c++ you can do things like "#define private public" in .net you can access everything using reflection.
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question Chemists have exactly one rule: there are only exceptions
No, that is the whole point. A proper OOP language begins with the class, and everything proceeds from there. Without the class nothing will work. In C++ the class is just an extra that you can use or not as you like. So you can write C++ code that conforms (more or less) to the rules of OOP, but you can also just ignore them. As an example:
// in C# or Java you must have the following as a minimum:
class Mainclass
{
static void Main(string[] args)
{
// do something starting here
}
}// in C++ you have
int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
// do things here.
// BUT: this is the earliest point that you can instantiate a class
// AND: if you do not create any classes your code will be fine.return 0;}
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Well that was why I posted the link: so you could go and study it and make up your mind, not dismiss it out of hand. One thing you really need to develop in the IT world is an open mind.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
One thing you really need to develop in the IT world is an open mind.
and a lot of patience.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
