Fines verses Taxes
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The tax laws have become so complicated that no one - including the tax authorities - can reliably compute the taxes due except in the simplest of cases. Multinationals that have the ability to legitimately register profits in different locations take full advantage of this. Given that the amount of taxes due is a matter of opinion, the only recourse is to go to court. This wastes time and money, the only beneficiaries being the lawyers. The only way to restore certainty to tax computations would be a simultaneous, radical simplification of tax law worldwide. Don't hold your breath...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
Don't hold your breath...
... Particularly since those who make the laws regularly take advantage of the confusion in order to not pay taxes either ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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The tax laws have become so complicated that no one - including the tax authorities - can reliably compute the taxes due except in the simplest of cases. Multinationals that have the ability to legitimately register profits in different locations take full advantage of this. Given that the amount of taxes due is a matter of opinion, the only recourse is to go to court. This wastes time and money, the only beneficiaries being the lawyers. The only way to restore certainty to tax computations would be a simultaneous, radical simplification of tax law worldwide. Don't hold your breath...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
radical simplification of tax law worldwide
Which needs to be voted by lawmakers, which have tight links to those running international business. I think the game is biased.
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Google is being sued by 10 states: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55337327[^] Tech companies are being accused of avoiding taxes: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/02/silicon-valley-giants-accused-of-avoiding-100-billion-in-taxes.html[^] Are we entering a world where fines are replacing taxes? Is that scary?
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
radical simplification of tax law worldwide
Which needs to be voted by lawmakers, which have tight links to those running international business. I think the game is biased.
The Golden Rule, those that have the gold make the rules.
// TODO: Insert something here
Top ten reasons why I'm lazy 1.
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The tax laws have become so complicated that no one - including the tax authorities - can reliably compute the taxes due except in the simplest of cases. Multinationals that have the ability to legitimately register profits in different locations take full advantage of this. Given that the amount of taxes due is a matter of opinion, the only recourse is to go to court. This wastes time and money, the only beneficiaries being the lawyers. The only way to restore certainty to tax computations would be a simultaneous, radical simplification of tax law worldwide. Don't hold your breath...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
I hear what you're saying, but I also consider the net win of using tax law to incentivize desirable social behavior and discourage undesirable behavior in a way that's less onerous than having actual laws or fines. For example, I can either pass a law to ban smoking, or I can tax it. Of the two options which is the most impositional? Smoking is a simple example, but realistically there are probably a bunch more reasons I can find to do this kind of thing where it concerns the way businesses do business. For example businesses that benefit society get a tax incentive. Businesses that are a net drag on society (like payday lenders) in terms of overall costing us money, get taxed more, that sort of thing. So simplification is one thing. I don't disagree with you that the tax codes have become onerous. It's a big ball of mud and it's probably time for a rewrite. But I'm highly suspicious of flat tax schemes because I think the people proposing them the loudest simply want no financial penalties for costly social behavior.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I hear what you're saying, but I also consider the net win of using tax law to incentivize desirable social behavior and discourage undesirable behavior in a way that's less onerous than having actual laws or fines. For example, I can either pass a law to ban smoking, or I can tax it. Of the two options which is the most impositional? Smoking is a simple example, but realistically there are probably a bunch more reasons I can find to do this kind of thing where it concerns the way businesses do business. For example businesses that benefit society get a tax incentive. Businesses that are a net drag on society (like payday lenders) in terms of overall costing us money, get taxed more, that sort of thing. So simplification is one thing. I don't disagree with you that the tax codes have become onerous. It's a big ball of mud and it's probably time for a rewrite. But I'm highly suspicious of flat tax schemes because I think the people proposing them the loudest simply want no financial penalties for costly social behavior.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
using tax law to incentivize desirable social behavior and discourage undesirable behavior
Using taxation policy as an instrument of social policy is a major reason for the complexity of the tax law. It is also a major cause of unexpected consequences, and usually lags behind what is considered socially desirable (e.g. have tobacco subsidies in the US been repealed yet? :) )
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'm highly suspicious of flat tax schemes because I think the people proposing them the loudest simply want no financial penalties for costly social behavior.
Yes, people should pay the full cost of their actions, but I have my doubts whether taxation is the correct way to do so. For example, sewage charges should reflect the cost of treatment, rather than merely the amount of sewage or some other criterion.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
using tax law to incentivize desirable social behavior and discourage undesirable behavior
Using taxation policy as an instrument of social policy is a major reason for the complexity of the tax law. It is also a major cause of unexpected consequences, and usually lags behind what is considered socially desirable (e.g. have tobacco subsidies in the US been repealed yet? :) )
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'm highly suspicious of flat tax schemes because I think the people proposing them the loudest simply want no financial penalties for costly social behavior.
Yes, people should pay the full cost of their actions, but I have my doubts whether taxation is the correct way to do so. For example, sewage charges should reflect the cost of treatment, rather than merely the amount of sewage or some other criterion.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Where it's possible, I agree, but I just don't think you can attach direct costs to certain things, like smoking for example. We know we pay for it collectively - this is doubly true in a country with nationalized healthcare, but the figures are statistical at best. Or say, even weatherproofing your home. That's something that's probably socially beneficial for a number of reasons. Running a small business most often is too. But direct monetary worth? It's hard to pin down. In these cases, I think the idea is not so much about remuneration as it is encouragement of certain activities. We don't need the actual hard costs to be able to decide collectively that we want to incentivize something, and in many case, I just don't think they're realistic to find. Let me put it to you as a question. How would you encourage people to start small businesses in your area if you ran the local government?
Real programmers use butterflies
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Where it's possible, I agree, but I just don't think you can attach direct costs to certain things, like smoking for example. We know we pay for it collectively - this is doubly true in a country with nationalized healthcare, but the figures are statistical at best. Or say, even weatherproofing your home. That's something that's probably socially beneficial for a number of reasons. Running a small business most often is too. But direct monetary worth? It's hard to pin down. In these cases, I think the idea is not so much about remuneration as it is encouragement of certain activities. We don't need the actual hard costs to be able to decide collectively that we want to incentivize something, and in many case, I just don't think they're realistic to find. Let me put it to you as a question. How would you encourage people to start small businesses in your area if you ran the local government?
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
How would you encourage people to start small businesses in your area if you ran the local government?
It is well-known that if you want less of something, tax it; if you want more of something, subsidise it. Small (and large) businesses should not be subsidised; the possibility of making a profit should be enough of an incentive for starting one. OTOH, just because someone is making money (horrors!) is no reason to levy taxes. Giving the government the power to take money from the citizens by force or under threat of force is terribly destructive; and should therefore be used in homeopathic doses. Taxation should be solely a mechanism by which we collectively pay the costs of running the government. It should not be used as an instrument of social policy, nor should it be used to rob Peter in order to pay Paul. I have deliberately left open the question of "what is the proper province of government?" because that would verge too closely on politics.
honey the codewitch wrote:
I just don't think you can attach direct costs to certain things
I agree that there are activities whose cost is difficult to define - air pollution, for example. In this case, the appropriate model might be that of licensing - a corporation can buy a license to produce a certain amount of specified pollutants, with penalties for exceeding this amount or producing other pollutants. The question is who should collect the license fees. IMO, this should not be the government - such fees tend to disappear in the general fund, and not be used for the clean-up - but a corporation whose only purpose is cleaning up pollutants, and which would use the fees as its sole source of funding. The idea obviously needs a lot more work. :)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Google is being sued by 10 states: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55337327[^] Tech companies are being accused of avoiding taxes: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/02/silicon-valley-giants-accused-of-avoiding-100-billion-in-taxes.html[^] Are we entering a world where fines are replacing taxes? Is that scary?
You pay the fine ... but still get to pay the taxes too; with interest. Unless someone is sleeping.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Google is being sued by 10 states: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55337327[^] Tech companies are being accused of avoiding taxes: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/02/silicon-valley-giants-accused-of-avoiding-100-billion-in-taxes.html[^] Are we entering a world where fines are replacing taxes? Is that scary?
"A tax is a fine for doing well, a fine is a tax for doing wrong." - Mark Twain
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