I've just learned...
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Although I developed some certain skepticism for some vaccines that the government has pushed (or been lobbied to be pushed, like HPV), I take a quite different view about life-saving vaccines. Key word: life saving. Certain maladies have all but totally disappeared from live experience (and memory): typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, and smallpox, to name a few. My sleeve is rolled up. COVID: I didn't want to be at the front of the line but this past weekend I managed to schedule appointments for Mrs & Myself. I'd have liked them a month earlier than we are scheduled but you take what you get. Pretty much everything you do in the health field is a gamble. Sometimes the chances of it going wrong are insignificant. Other times there's a bit of a roll of the dice. You are sort of obligated to use your brain (aside for keeping one's ears apart) and make an intelligent choice. 0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall. At one end, it's far lower (very young children) but at the other end, it's freakin' scary. I'm in a 5x greater risk group. What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it with what appears to be extremely low risk of mortality and very low risk of side effects by the vaccine. I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
Nicely expressed I have tried to contact the authorities too... pretty much impossible for me to get in the line this year. My wife is working in health system and was not even asked yet. :doh: :doh: :doh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Although I developed some certain skepticism for some vaccines that the government has pushed (or been lobbied to be pushed, like HPV), I take a quite different view about life-saving vaccines. Key word: life saving. Certain maladies have all but totally disappeared from live experience (and memory): typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, and smallpox, to name a few. My sleeve is rolled up. COVID: I didn't want to be at the front of the line but this past weekend I managed to schedule appointments for Mrs & Myself. I'd have liked them a month earlier than we are scheduled but you take what you get. Pretty much everything you do in the health field is a gamble. Sometimes the chances of it going wrong are insignificant. Other times there's a bit of a roll of the dice. You are sort of obligated to use your brain (aside for keeping one's ears apart) and make an intelligent choice. 0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall. At one end, it's far lower (very young children) but at the other end, it's freakin' scary. I'm in a 5x greater risk group. What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it with what appears to be extremely low risk of mortality and very low risk of side effects by the vaccine. I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it
In that case, stay off the road. :-\
20212 wrote:
In that case, stay off the road
In my particular corner of the world (most) people have licenses to drive their vehicles. You should look into that. Even the most reckless consider their insurance rates going up if they hit anyone or anything.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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That we have a committee that has the power to say, that the government should ask for the committee's permission to apply the vaccine on us, as it is actually a human research... I think the committee is not hole, we need to assign some policemen to let the committee actually confiscate the vaccine to stop this crime...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
I'd be much more sanguine with the whole thing if the folks mandating vaccines had more sense. My wife had covid. But they are forcing her to get the vaccine. Because vaccines trick your body into thinking it was exposed to the virus. You'd think actually HAVING the virus would be good enough.
We won't sit down. We won't shut up. We won't go quietly away. YouTube, and My Mu[sic], Films and Windows Programs, etc. and FB
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Agreed. Everyone should be required fill out an informed-consent form of at least 100 pages (hard copy, in triplicate, no carbon paper allowed!) before receiving the vaccine. /s Now seriously. 1. The vaccines are given with a proper purpose - the prevention of a deadly (~0.8% fatalities over the entire population) disease 2. The vaccines were tested using standard protocols, and shown to be safe in the short run (a few months) 3. From other vaccines, we know that the overwhelming majority of side-effects of occur in the first hours/days, with vanishingly few effects lasting beyond a month 4. (3) appears to be the case also for these vaccines 5. All of this information has been provided in all media - print newspapers, radio, TV, internet, ... In other words, the vaccines appear to be just as safe as the flu vaccines which many of us get every year. Is Helsinki Committee approval required for those, as well?
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
(hard copy, in triplicate, no carbon paper allowed!)
Out of curiosity: Assuming that carbon paper was allowed - would you have one at hand? I haven't seen a single sheet of carbon paper for at least twenty years. I think it must be thirty by now!
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
(hard copy, in triplicate, no carbon paper allowed!)
Out of curiosity: Assuming that carbon paper was allowed - would you have one at hand? I haven't seen a single sheet of carbon paper for at least twenty years. I think it must be thirty by now!
trønderen wrote:
Out of curiosity: Assuming that carbon paper was allowed - would you have one at hand?
Yes. My father still has some in his stationery drawer. :) (He never throws anything away :sigh: )
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I'd be much more sanguine with the whole thing if the folks mandating vaccines had more sense. My wife had covid. But they are forcing her to get the vaccine. Because vaccines trick your body into thinking it was exposed to the virus. You'd think actually HAVING the virus would be good enough.
We won't sit down. We won't shut up. We won't go quietly away. YouTube, and My Mu[sic], Films and Windows Programs, etc. and FB
It seems to be different there... Here those had the virus do not get the vaccine - not for now at least...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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Although I developed some certain skepticism for some vaccines that the government has pushed (or been lobbied to be pushed, like HPV), I take a quite different view about life-saving vaccines. Key word: life saving. Certain maladies have all but totally disappeared from live experience (and memory): typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, and smallpox, to name a few. My sleeve is rolled up. COVID: I didn't want to be at the front of the line but this past weekend I managed to schedule appointments for Mrs & Myself. I'd have liked them a month earlier than we are scheduled but you take what you get. Pretty much everything you do in the health field is a gamble. Sometimes the chances of it going wrong are insignificant. Other times there's a bit of a roll of the dice. You are sort of obligated to use your brain (aside for keeping one's ears apart) and make an intelligent choice. 0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall. At one end, it's far lower (very young children) but at the other end, it's freakin' scary. I'm in a 5x greater risk group. What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it with what appears to be extremely low risk of mortality and very low risk of side effects by the vaccine. I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Agreed.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall.
I'm well aware of that, but I didn't want to lose the point I was making, namely that this is a vaccine against a DEADLY disease.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
(hard copy, in triplicate, no carbon paper allowed!)
Out of curiosity: Assuming that carbon paper was allowed - would you have one at hand? I haven't seen a single sheet of carbon paper for at least twenty years. I think it must be thirty by now!
My last use of carbon paper was several decades ago: I used it as a detector for when I got the preliminary alignment of "my" CO2-TEA laser going. It was even more sensitive than a fluorescent (heat sensitive) phosphor that the professor bought for the purpose. Also, using the fluorescent screen had a secondary drawback: anything much about the bare minimum laser output smoked the sucker - literally. When that happened to the carbon paper, you just moved to another spot and did your best to avoid fires. Sort of worked, years later, with a flash lamp pumped dye laser. I'd probably seek some out, again, if I were bringing up lasers again.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I'd be much more sanguine with the whole thing if the folks mandating vaccines had more sense. My wife had covid. But they are forcing her to get the vaccine. Because vaccines trick your body into thinking it was exposed to the virus. You'd think actually HAVING the virus would be good enough.
We won't sit down. We won't shut up. We won't go quietly away. YouTube, and My Mu[sic], Films and Windows Programs, etc. and FB
So - is this an EU rule or did Germany manage to screw up common sense on its own? Now - no bragging rights, here: every state has its own rules and some are not even up to the standard of asinine (Florida comes to mind - no surprises there).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
Although I developed some certain skepticism for some vaccines that the government has pushed (or been lobbied to be pushed, like HPV), I take a quite different view about life-saving vaccines. Key word: life saving. Certain maladies have all but totally disappeared from live experience (and memory): typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, and smallpox, to name a few. My sleeve is rolled up. COVID: I didn't want to be at the front of the line but this past weekend I managed to schedule appointments for Mrs & Myself. I'd have liked them a month earlier than we are scheduled but you take what you get. Pretty much everything you do in the health field is a gamble. Sometimes the chances of it going wrong are insignificant. Other times there's a bit of a roll of the dice. You are sort of obligated to use your brain (aside for keeping one's ears apart) and make an intelligent choice. 0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall. At one end, it's far lower (very young children) but at the other end, it's freakin' scary. I'm in a 5x greater risk group. What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it with what appears to be extremely low risk of mortality and very low risk of side effects by the vaccine. I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Like most things medical, risk/reward comes into play. So, what is riskier for me, vaccine or trying to isolate? I decided the vaccine is less risky. Got my first shot Sunday, via the VA (over 75). 4 weeks to go for the second. Need another hat for the second head growing out of my left shoulder. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Like most things medical, risk/reward comes into play. So, what is riskier for me, vaccine or trying to isolate? I decided the vaccine is less risky. Got my first shot Sunday, via the VA (over 75). 4 weeks to go for the second. Need another hat for the second head growing out of my left shoulder. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
theoldfool wrote:
Need another hat for the second head growing out of my left shoulder.
Waste Not - Want Not: See if it's eligible to apply for social security.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
-
That we have a committee that has the power to say, that the government should ask for the committee's permission to apply the vaccine on us, as it is actually a human research... I think the committee is not hole, we need to assign some policemen to let the committee actually confiscate the vaccine to stop this crime...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
We really need only one committee in the world[^].
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theoldfool wrote:
Need another hat for the second head growing out of my left shoulder.
Waste Not - Want Not: See if it's eligible to apply for social security.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I like the way you think.
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Agreed.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall.
I'm well aware of that, but I didn't want to lose the point I was making, namely that this is a vaccine against a DEADLY disease.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
0.8% mortality rate, vs a vaccine that has been ruled 95% effective (I'm going with the higher-end figure; I'm not aware any one of the other options have been made out to be more effective than that). In light of this, doesn't it seem like the vaccine therefore doesn't do much?
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
(hard copy, in triplicate, no carbon paper allowed!)
Out of curiosity: Assuming that carbon paper was allowed - would you have one at hand? I haven't seen a single sheet of carbon paper for at least twenty years. I think it must be thirty by now!
I have about 1000 sheets of fanfold carbon in my office. When a trainee programmer in the 80s I tested a program that printed to 3-part line-printer. Foolishly (I lived and learnt) the first run was with the correct stationery. It had an endless loop. The operator phoned me up when the first box of stationery was all used up (only printed one line per page) checking if I really needed it, and how many boxes it would take. He made me come down to the machine room and collect it. Seemed an embarrassing waste to put it in the skip, so I took it home as "I'd need carbon paper sometime". :doh:
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Although I developed some certain skepticism for some vaccines that the government has pushed (or been lobbied to be pushed, like HPV), I take a quite different view about life-saving vaccines. Key word: life saving. Certain maladies have all but totally disappeared from live experience (and memory): typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, and smallpox, to name a few. My sleeve is rolled up. COVID: I didn't want to be at the front of the line but this past weekend I managed to schedule appointments for Mrs & Myself. I'd have liked them a month earlier than we are scheduled but you take what you get. Pretty much everything you do in the health field is a gamble. Sometimes the chances of it going wrong are insignificant. Other times there's a bit of a roll of the dice. You are sort of obligated to use your brain (aside for keeping one's ears apart) and make an intelligent choice. 0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall. At one end, it's far lower (very young children) but at the other end, it's freakin' scary. I'm in a 5x greater risk group. What a fool I'd be to risk a 1 in 20 chance of dying (and much higher chance of lingering effects) when I could prevent it with what appears to be extremely low risk of mortality and very low risk of side effects by the vaccine. I, personally, choose to spend my paranoia wisely - by living long enough to do so.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall.
Here in the UK (with the new variant) we're running over 1000 deaths per day, (1600 today) and a couple of weeks ago the measured infection rate was around 50,000. Since by definition the "deaths" figure counts people who had a positive test, they were all included in the daily "positives" count. So that means over 1 in 50 are currently DYING of this disease. That's 2% mortality, not 0.8%. In fact, since we know there are a lot of false positives reported in testing (some are claiming up to 70% are false positives), that means the numbers of people actually catching Covid are somewhere between 40,000 and 15,000 - i.e. the actual mortality rate could be as high as 1 in 15, or nearer 7%. And that's just mortality. Of the 15 or so people I know who've caught it, 3 are dead, 3 are living with long-term significant health issues (leaving them unable to live a "normal" life) and another has mid-term (so far; maybe long-term) pain ("Covid toe"). So only half have fully recovered (and that includes my 10-year old grand-daughter, who was "supposed" not to be vulnerable to it). I got a spam email the other day about a supposed cover-up of a death following vaccination. We've had over 4.2 million people vaccinated here in the UK, about 6% of the population, but I've yet to hear any reliable reports of a fatal outcome. I'll be having my jab when I get the call!
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
0.8% mortality rate . . . that's overall.
Here in the UK (with the new variant) we're running over 1000 deaths per day, (1600 today) and a couple of weeks ago the measured infection rate was around 50,000. Since by definition the "deaths" figure counts people who had a positive test, they were all included in the daily "positives" count. So that means over 1 in 50 are currently DYING of this disease. That's 2% mortality, not 0.8%. In fact, since we know there are a lot of false positives reported in testing (some are claiming up to 70% are false positives), that means the numbers of people actually catching Covid are somewhere between 40,000 and 15,000 - i.e. the actual mortality rate could be as high as 1 in 15, or nearer 7%. And that's just mortality. Of the 15 or so people I know who've caught it, 3 are dead, 3 are living with long-term significant health issues (leaving them unable to live a "normal" life) and another has mid-term (so far; maybe long-term) pain ("Covid toe"). So only half have fully recovered (and that includes my 10-year old grand-daughter, who was "supposed" not to be vulnerable to it). I got a spam email the other day about a supposed cover-up of a death following vaccination. We've had over 4.2 million people vaccinated here in the UK, about 6% of the population, but I've yet to hear any reliable reports of a fatal outcome. I'll be having my jab when I get the call!
Death rates vary by country - in fact, the counting method here, in the US, has actually varied by state - especially those who chose to ignore it all as a hoax. They're paying for being stupid even as we speak - or should I say, the citizens of those states are paying . . . you can be pretty sure the "management" discretely took precautions. To them, keeping business' open was (and still is) more important than saving lives. Besides, you get the symptoms AFTER you've paid your restaurant or gym/spa bill. The figure I quote was from the OP - which can vary. The multiplier is from a CDC statistic on mortality vs. age group, setting the mid-to-late-20's as "1" . The death rate increases as the hospitals fill. As a devil's advocate point, remember that many go asymptomatic and don't get tested - escaping the count and otherwise not lowering the rates. But that's not the point. US death toll, now, is around 400,000 - > 1 in 1000 . Daily death tolls haven't been a "low" as yours since November. Morgues are overflowing into refrigerated truck containers. This is not the flu - this is a killer (and, as I alluded to and you described in some detail, a crippler, as well). We live in an age where morons want to believe it's a conspiracy - a hoax - perhaps a plot by the Illuminati. So they won't recognize it and take the vaccine. I have a solution to someone who won't take the vaccine: "who's next in line . . . .". I see no reason to talk someone into accepting something such as the vaccine that is so coveted and yet in short supply. Perhaps, now that the vaccine is available, victimhood will shift ever more towards the fools and fanatics - and so their relative proportion in the population will decrease. When it's over, perhaps it will end up Darwinian in overall effect. The reality, however, is that there's immense sadness as the victims, to start with, were primarily blameless. The party goers? For them I've fewer tears to shed. It's like a biological version of drunk driving. Endangering themselves and others around them "because they have rights". The precise number/mortality rate isn't important. It's that a deadly disease was politicized. Worse, I perceive (a risk of being political) that the current administration here lied about the "backup" vaccines they have in store and is reversing a ban on air traffic from Brazil and South Africa (even worse variant than UK variant) - to exacerbate the problem for the administrations successors.
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Death rates vary by country - in fact, the counting method here, in the US, has actually varied by state - especially those who chose to ignore it all as a hoax. They're paying for being stupid even as we speak - or should I say, the citizens of those states are paying . . . you can be pretty sure the "management" discretely took precautions. To them, keeping business' open was (and still is) more important than saving lives. Besides, you get the symptoms AFTER you've paid your restaurant or gym/spa bill. The figure I quote was from the OP - which can vary. The multiplier is from a CDC statistic on mortality vs. age group, setting the mid-to-late-20's as "1" . The death rate increases as the hospitals fill. As a devil's advocate point, remember that many go asymptomatic and don't get tested - escaping the count and otherwise not lowering the rates. But that's not the point. US death toll, now, is around 400,000 - > 1 in 1000 . Daily death tolls haven't been a "low" as yours since November. Morgues are overflowing into refrigerated truck containers. This is not the flu - this is a killer (and, as I alluded to and you described in some detail, a crippler, as well). We live in an age where morons want to believe it's a conspiracy - a hoax - perhaps a plot by the Illuminati. So they won't recognize it and take the vaccine. I have a solution to someone who won't take the vaccine: "who's next in line . . . .". I see no reason to talk someone into accepting something such as the vaccine that is so coveted and yet in short supply. Perhaps, now that the vaccine is available, victimhood will shift ever more towards the fools and fanatics - and so their relative proportion in the population will decrease. When it's over, perhaps it will end up Darwinian in overall effect. The reality, however, is that there's immense sadness as the victims, to start with, were primarily blameless. The party goers? For them I've fewer tears to shed. It's like a biological version of drunk driving. Endangering themselves and others around them "because they have rights". The precise number/mortality rate isn't important. It's that a deadly disease was politicized. Worse, I perceive (a risk of being political) that the current administration here lied about the "backup" vaccines they have in store and is reversing a ban on air traffic from Brazil and South Africa (even worse variant than UK variant) - to exacerbate the problem for the administrations successors.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Perhaps, now that the vaccine is available, victimhood will shift ever more towards the fools and fanatics - and so their relative proportion in the population will decrease. When it's over, perhaps it will end up Darwinian in overall effect.
we won't be so lucky... :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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0.8% mortality rate, vs a vaccine that has been ruled 95% effective (I'm going with the higher-end figure; I'm not aware any one of the other options have been made out to be more effective than that). In light of this, doesn't it seem like the vaccine therefore doesn't do much?
That's not the way to look at it. Assuming that the vaccine prevents 95% of all infections, the death rate should drop to 5% of the current rate as well. If the current death rate in the US is 3,000/day, that would be expected to drop to 150/day. All this assumes that the vaccine prevents disease, but not transmission. If the vaccine also prevents transmission, the death rate should drop even lower - the virus has no legs or wings, and can only be passed from one person to another.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
