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  3. Aren't they _slightly_ out of their jurisdiction?

Aren't they _slightly_ out of their jurisdiction?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved The Lounge
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  • D Offline
    D Offline
    Daniel Pfeffer
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    [Neil Armstrong's boot print and other artifacts left on the moon are now protected by US law | Daily Mail Online](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9185439/Neil-Armstrongs-boot-print-artifacts-left-moon-protected-law.html)

    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

    N N W 3 Replies Last reply
    0
    • D Daniel Pfeffer

      [Neil Armstrong's boot print and other artifacts left on the moon are now protected by US law | Daily Mail Online](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9185439/Neil-Armstrongs-boot-print-artifacts-left-moon-protected-law.html)

      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

      N Offline
      N Offline
      Niemand25
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Common, it's not that far, you can even see it from any point in the US :cool:

      2 1 Reply Last reply
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      • D Daniel Pfeffer

        [Neil Armstrong's boot print and other artifacts left on the moon are now protected by US law | Daily Mail Online](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9185439/Neil-Armstrongs-boot-print-artifacts-left-moon-protected-law.html)

        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

        N Offline
        N Offline
        Nelek
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Quote:

        Aren't they _slightly_ out of their jurisdiction?

        Nahhhh... and I better don't answer what I would answer because I don't want to soapbox the lounge.

        M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • N Niemand25

          Common, it's not that far, you can even see it from any point in the US :cool:

          2 Offline
          2 Offline
          20212a
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Niemand25 wrote:

          you can even see it from any point in the US

          Which is how I know it's closer to us than California is because you can't see California from where I am at.

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • D Daniel Pfeffer

            [Neil Armstrong's boot print and other artifacts left on the moon are now protected by US law | Daily Mail Online](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9185439/Neil-Armstrongs-boot-print-artifacts-left-moon-protected-law.html)

            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

            W Offline
            W Offline
            W Balboos GHB
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            No - not out of jurisdiction. As first to set foot there, they own it. Anyone who objects? Well they should have tried harder to get there first. (so much whining - hey, world . . . suck it up)

            Ravings en masse^

            "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

            "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

            S D 2 Replies Last reply
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            • W W Balboos GHB

              No - not out of jurisdiction. As first to set foot there, they own it. Anyone who objects? Well they should have tried harder to get there first. (so much whining - hey, world . . . suck it up)

              Ravings en masse^

              "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

              "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

              S Offline
              S Offline
              Slacker007
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              well said. :thumbsup:

              Greg UtasG D 2 Replies Last reply
              0
              • S Slacker007

                well said. :thumbsup:

                Greg UtasG Offline
                Greg UtasG Offline
                Greg Utas
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Try the homesteading principle.

                Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
                The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

                <p><a href="https://github.com/GregUtas/robust-services-core/blob/master/README.md">Robust Services Core</a>
                <em>The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.</em></p>

                W 1 Reply Last reply
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                • Greg UtasG Greg Utas

                  Try the homesteading principle.

                  Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
                  The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

                  W Offline
                  W Offline
                  W Balboos GHB
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Greg Utas wrote:

                  homesteading

                  One person's homesteader is another person's squatter. If you go on vacation and someone "homesteads" your dwelling . . . ?

                  Ravings en masse^

                  "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                  "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                  Greg UtasG 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • W W Balboos GHB

                    Greg Utas wrote:

                    homesteading

                    One person's homesteader is another person's squatter. If you go on vacation and someone "homesteads" your dwelling . . . ?

                    Ravings en masse^

                    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                    "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                    Greg UtasG Offline
                    Greg UtasG Offline
                    Greg Utas
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    The property has to be clearly abandoned.

                    Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
                    The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

                    <p><a href="https://github.com/GregUtas/robust-services-core/blob/master/README.md">Robust Services Core</a>
                    <em>The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.</em></p>

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • W W Balboos GHB

                      No - not out of jurisdiction. As first to set foot there, they own it. Anyone who objects? Well they should have tried harder to get there first. (so much whining - hey, world . . . suck it up)

                      Ravings en masse^

                      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                      "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                      D Offline
                      D Offline
                      Daniel Pfeffer
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      You must have lost your copy of the [Outer Space treaty of 1967](https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html). Among other things, the signatories (which include the US) agree that:

                      Quote:

                      outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;

                      Therefore the US has no jurisdiction on the Moon or any other celestial body.

                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                      W C 2 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • S Slacker007

                        well said. :thumbsup:

                        D Offline
                        D Offline
                        Daniel Pfeffer
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        The [Outer Space treaty of 1967](https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html), to which the US is a signatory, says otherwise:

                        Quote:

                        outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;

                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • D Daniel Pfeffer

                          You must have lost your copy of the [Outer Space treaty of 1967](https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html). Among other things, the signatories (which include the US) agree that:

                          Quote:

                          outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;

                          Therefore the US has no jurisdiction on the Moon or any other celestial body.

                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                          W Offline
                          W Offline
                          W Balboos GHB
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Outer Space - the place between things (like planets, moons, pita-aggregates).* Specifically, in one of the bullet points on your reference:

                          Quote:

                          the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;

                          which clearly differentiates the moon as a celestial body vs a component considered outer space. You are welcome to all the outer space you can grab. I know that terrestrial vacuums suck, but maybe that other stuff is better. * Aside: does one own their own satellites (nation or business)? Put into outer space, do they become public domain?

                          Ravings en masse^

                          "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                          "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                          D 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • W W Balboos GHB

                            Outer Space - the place between things (like planets, moons, pita-aggregates).* Specifically, in one of the bullet points on your reference:

                            Quote:

                            the Moon and other celestial bodies shall be used exclusively for peaceful purposes;

                            which clearly differentiates the moon as a celestial body vs a component considered outer space. You are welcome to all the outer space you can grab. I know that terrestrial vacuums suck, but maybe that other stuff is better. * Aside: does one own their own satellites (nation or business)? Put into outer space, do they become public domain?

                            Ravings en masse^

                            "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                            "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                            D Offline
                            D Offline
                            Daniel Pfeffer
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                            Outer Space - the place between things (like planets, moons, pita-aggregates).

                            [The Definition and Delimitation of Outer Space](https://www.unoosa.org/documents/pdf/copuos/lsc/2017/tech-05.pdf) claims that there is no legally accepted standard, but the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has suggested a limit of 100km for national airspace. The same presentation claims that there are moves to lower that limit by international treaty. In any case, the limit is far below the Moon's orbit, and therefore the Moon definitely is covered by the Outer Space treaty and other Space treaties.

                            W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                            does one own their own satellites (nation or business)? Put into outer space, do they become public domain?

                            The treaties do not preclude the existence of private property in space; they do forbid annexation or applying national law to any celestial body, including the Moon. There are some interesting lacunae in the Space treaties, which Ben Bova has used to good effect in his stories (google Ben Bova Asteroid Wars).

                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                            W 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • D Daniel Pfeffer

                              W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                              Outer Space - the place between things (like planets, moons, pita-aggregates).

                              [The Definition and Delimitation of Outer Space](https://www.unoosa.org/documents/pdf/copuos/lsc/2017/tech-05.pdf) claims that there is no legally accepted standard, but the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has suggested a limit of 100km for national airspace. The same presentation claims that there are moves to lower that limit by international treaty. In any case, the limit is far below the Moon's orbit, and therefore the Moon definitely is covered by the Outer Space treaty and other Space treaties.

                              W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                              does one own their own satellites (nation or business)? Put into outer space, do they become public domain?

                              The treaties do not preclude the existence of private property in space; they do forbid annexation or applying national law to any celestial body, including the Moon. There are some interesting lacunae in the Space treaties, which Ben Bova has used to good effect in his stories (google Ben Bova Asteroid Wars).

                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                              W Offline
                              W Offline
                              W Balboos GHB
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Here's where you are in error (in my opinion) and, as a positive note, not a lawyer at heart: You are mixing the definition of "outer space" and "in outer space". The celestial bodies are not outer space - and in fact, not space at all, but are matter (solid/liquid/gas - suns=plasma). So - you cannot, per the treaty, codon off a section of the great void and call it your own. You are not excluded, however, from cordoning off an item of "substance" that happens to be within that region. And if you call me a layer at heart because of this, I will hang my head in shame - but enjoy a smirk, nonetheless.

                              Ravings en masse^

                              "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                              "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                              D 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • W W Balboos GHB

                                Here's where you are in error (in my opinion) and, as a positive note, not a lawyer at heart: You are mixing the definition of "outer space" and "in outer space". The celestial bodies are not outer space - and in fact, not space at all, but are matter (solid/liquid/gas - suns=plasma). So - you cannot, per the treaty, codon off a section of the great void and call it your own. You are not excluded, however, from cordoning off an item of "substance" that happens to be within that region. And if you call me a layer at heart because of this, I will hang my head in shame - but enjoy a smirk, nonetheless.

                                Ravings en masse^

                                "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                                "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                                D Offline
                                D Offline
                                Daniel Pfeffer
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                That is exactly one of the lacunae in the Outer Space treaties. :) I expect that Space law will eventually settle on something like this: 1. Large bodies (the planets & most of their moons, the Moon, larger asteroids) will probably be treated as international areas (in a manner similar to the way Antarctica is treated), and will have some sort of law enforcement 2. Small bodies (e.g. asteroids small enough to be moved with current or foreseeable technology) will be exploited by the first to land and be able to defend their claim 3. Any bodies with alien life (possibly Europa's ocean, for example) will be out of bounds to all This has some similarities to the situation in the old "Wild West". Like the "Wild West", I expect that eventually some sort of law-enforcement organization will be formed with jurisdiction in space. I'm making no predictions of who/what will form this organization, nor on what form it will take...

                                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                W 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • D Daniel Pfeffer

                                  That is exactly one of the lacunae in the Outer Space treaties. :) I expect that Space law will eventually settle on something like this: 1. Large bodies (the planets & most of their moons, the Moon, larger asteroids) will probably be treated as international areas (in a manner similar to the way Antarctica is treated), and will have some sort of law enforcement 2. Small bodies (e.g. asteroids small enough to be moved with current or foreseeable technology) will be exploited by the first to land and be able to defend their claim 3. Any bodies with alien life (possibly Europa's ocean, for example) will be out of bounds to all This has some similarities to the situation in the old "Wild West". Like the "Wild West", I expect that eventually some sort of law-enforcement organization will be formed with jurisdiction in space. I'm making no predictions of who/what will form this organization, nor on what form it will take...

                                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                  W Offline
                                  W Offline
                                  W Balboos GHB
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Daniel Pfeffer wrote:

                                  I expect that eventually some sort of law-enforcement organization will be formed with jurisdiction in space. I'm making no predictions of who/what will form this organization, nor on what form it will take...

                                  Now I worry about you - - - I do know someone who proposed a "space force" vs. the other armed services. If it ain't Jedi Knights then I don't want to know about it.

                                  Ravings en masse^

                                  "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                                  "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                                  D 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • W W Balboos GHB

                                    Daniel Pfeffer wrote:

                                    I expect that eventually some sort of law-enforcement organization will be formed with jurisdiction in space. I'm making no predictions of who/what will form this organization, nor on what form it will take...

                                    Now I worry about you - - - I do know someone who proposed a "space force" vs. the other armed services. If it ain't Jedi Knights then I don't want to know about it.

                                    Ravings en masse^

                                    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                                    "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                                    D Offline
                                    D Offline
                                    Daniel Pfeffer
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                                    Now I worry about you - - - I do know someone who proposed a "space force" vs. the other armed services.

                                    I know of him, too. I was referring to a police force, not a military force. The two have very different goals.

                                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                    W 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • D Daniel Pfeffer

                                      W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:

                                      Now I worry about you - - - I do know someone who proposed a "space force" vs. the other armed services.

                                      I know of him, too. I was referring to a police force, not a military force. The two have very different goals.

                                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                      W Offline
                                      W Offline
                                      W Balboos GHB
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Daniel Pfeffer wrote:

                                      I was referring to a police force, not a military force. The two have very different goals.

                                      That depends a lot upon where you live (you should know that better than I, considering your regional neighbors). It's seems to be a clear distinction - and everyone probably has their own mental image of that distinction. Sometimes, the only difference is their uniform, or arm patch. But I know what you intended (I think) - in the US, internal use of the "military" is extremely rare. On the other hand, the national guard is used more often. The national guard can also be sent off to war. So, the difference?

                                      Ravings en masse^

                                      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                                      "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                                      D 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • W W Balboos GHB

                                        Daniel Pfeffer wrote:

                                        I was referring to a police force, not a military force. The two have very different goals.

                                        That depends a lot upon where you live (you should know that better than I, considering your regional neighbors). It's seems to be a clear distinction - and everyone probably has their own mental image of that distinction. Sometimes, the only difference is their uniform, or arm patch. But I know what you intended (I think) - in the US, internal use of the "military" is extremely rare. On the other hand, the national guard is used more often. The national guard can also be sent off to war. So, the difference?

                                        Ravings en masse^

                                        "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

                                        "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

                                        D Offline
                                        D Offline
                                        Daniel Pfeffer
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        I was born in the UK and now live in Israel, where there is a sharp difference between the police and the military. There is no equivalent of the National Guard in either.

                                        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • D Daniel Pfeffer

                                          You must have lost your copy of the [Outer Space treaty of 1967](https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html). Among other things, the signatories (which include the US) agree that:

                                          Quote:

                                          outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means;

                                          Therefore the US has no jurisdiction on the Moon or any other celestial body.

                                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

                                          C Offline
                                          C Offline
                                          charlieg
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          possession is 99% of the law :) we're going back baby.

                                          Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759

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