Be a team player
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Greg Utas wrote:
Unless training others is one of them
I'm not fit to teach, tried it. Long story short, I became angry with my students for writing down my words when just thinking out loud.
Greg Utas wrote:
Being on a team doesn't mean that you owe everyone charity.
It's not charity; if the company and the team succeeds, more money for all. ..but why give away to all what got me hired? That's a wish of a company owner to maximize profit, without regard for the employee. Each of us learns as they want, knowledge is freely available.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy wote:
It's not charity; if the company and the team succeeds, more money for all.
True, as long as you don't get fired for taking on something that caused everyone to be late.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Actually I've been encouraged to knowledge dump my biggest client's code onto this site. I just haven't yet because I haven't had the time. Mind you it's not exactly the same situation, because my primary deliverable is hardware, not software. That's where the money is for us. Anyway, that's where I am ideally. And as far as knowledge being proprietary? My personal opinion is that knowledge frees itself over a long enough timeline - we can only get in the way of that. I do my part not to try to get in the way of that. The boundaries on what I share are set by my clients, not me. As far as the rest of your comment, having elaborated your point, I don't have much to argue with. My initial read was different than my takeaway having read your response. Yes some team members are crap. Sometimes. I read your comment as suggesting that was the norm that team members were crap, which is what inspired my initial response.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
Actually I've been encouraged to knowledge dump my biggest client's code onto this site.
Most companies not going to share "IP".
honey the codewitch wrote:
Anyway, that's where I am ideally.
Ideally? Ideally I'd have invested in MS and IBM years ago.
honey the codewitch wrote:
And as far as knowledge being proprietary? My personal opinion is that knowledge frees itself over a long enough timeline - we can only get in the way of that.
You're a dreamer. We have patents to prevent just that. I wish you were a doctor, because COVID going to be expensive.
honey the codewitch wrote:
The boundaries on what I share are set by my clients, not me.
Welcome to reality.
honey the codewitch wrote:
As far as the rest of your comment, having elaborated your point, I don't have much to argue with. My initial read was different than my takeaway having read your response.
I like arguing with you, because I learn. My choice. Can't force that choice on team mates.
honey the codewitch wrote:
Yes some team members are crap. Sometimes. I read your comment as suggesting that was the norm that team members were crap, which is what inspired my initial response.
"Some" are, and they usually don't last long under a good manager. Teams; together we know more than individually. Together, ape strong. As a group we can go where individuals cannot. ..but I cannot teach my equals.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy wote:
It's not charity; if the company and the team succeeds, more money for all.
True, as long as you don't get fired for taking on something that caused everyone to be late.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Greg Utas wrote:
for taking on something that caused everyone to be late
Never at the expense of others. We work for the same piece of bread. Our result determines the size of the bread. Some teams don't understand that basic idea; in which case, I eliminate the weed. If you all in a boat, you float or sink together.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
Except they can't be removed from the team as there would be a gap in skills and knowledge which you can't have right now as it would slow down the project, which is exactly why these people don't share: job security :sigh: Seen it happen and removed myself from the team instead.
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Yeah, I agree there are those. I despise incompetence. I think Eddy clearly does, too. But - and maybe I read too much into that initial comment - it seemed to go further than just that: To *assume your team is that by default*, I have to ask myself several things. 1. How does this person get along with others, if they're already coming on to a team assuming everyone else is incompetent (in the way that you mentioned)? 2. What does it say about what he thinks of the company who would assemble such a (in his estimation) dodgy development team? 3. A lot of bad coders, and a lot of green coders (not the same thing, but sometimes share behaviors) have huge egos and very little practical skill (even if they have talent), making them impossible to *teach* and to advance. That's not always the case that a person with a bad attitude toward a team is incorrigible, but it's a red flag. Also, just because someone starts out this way doesn't mean they stay that way. They may have been a superstar in college, but haven't yet failed in the real world enough to gain the requisite character - those ones are teachable - eventually, but you have to invest in them. I can relate to you regarding training others. It's a pain, but most of the time I look at a failure to teach as my own failing, which causes me to pick my students carefully or suffer the self esteem hit of failing at teaching too often for me to be comfortable. If I want to teach people in general, I'll write an article. :) And if that's what Eddy is getting at, I can relate. But I think in my experience at least, while there are a large variety of developers, ones who absolutely cannot be taught are a minority**. ** I'm excluding the washouts here. In the dotcom days here in the US we had a glut of sudden "software developers" who didn't used to be software developers. They came from all walks of life. I - a homeless high school dropout with no other marketable skills to speak of - was one of them so I'm not judging. But a lot of people didn't last. I'm not including those people in my above estimation. I'm talking about developers - and including anyone (even myself) who didn't wash out.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I despise incompetence. I think Eddy clearly does, too.
I dislike people who fake it. Anyone seriously trying will have my support. We had people from university that can't write a line of code. All you need is to want. I have no degrees at all. None.
honey the codewitch wrote:
How does this person get along with others, if they're already coming on to a team assuming everyone else is incompetent (in the way that you mentioned)?
I'm an employee, not getting paid to get along. And why would you hire those?
honey the codewitch wrote:
2. What does it say about what he thinks of the company
I'm paid. I think about Rimworld and Oxygen not Included, not the company.
honey the codewitch wrote:
A lot of bad coders, and a lot of green coders (not the same thing, but sometimes share behaviors) have huge egos and very little practical skill (even if they have talent), making them impossible to *teach* and to advance.
If not willing to learn, at any age, you no longer fit for this field. Not much vacancies for someone stuck in VB4.
honey the codewitch wrote:
And if that's what Eddy is getting at, I can relate. But I think in my experience at least, while there are a large variety of developers, ones who absolutely cannot be taught are a minority**.
I was only saying I not responsible for the knowledge of my team members. Knowlegde they can get here free if they want it; as a co worker, I not morally allowed to force it onto them.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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TimWallace wrote:
<soapbox>I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team. </soapbox>
So, I should share the stuff that makes me valuable? "For free and the good of all"? CodeProject does that, they could learn here. I'm not responsible for the team. Moreso even, lots of the team usually has little interest in learning. If you want to remove me for their shortcomings, kudo's to you; you'll end up with the team you deserve :)
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Your attitude implies that you are not the team lead developer or even the senior developer.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Your attitude implies that you are not the team lead developer or even the senior developer.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
Did I misspell employee? Where? And do carry the title for some years. No Mycroft. Just no. Yuch.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
Contrawise, I've had jobs where I was reprimanded for using advanced concepts (i.e. actually using the latest C++ standard which they stated as part of the job requirement.) I was once chastised for using a predicate with a std::map.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
My favourite part of the job is passing on knowledge and watching people grow, having been doing it for almost 30 years I guess I have acquired some degree of experience to share (whether some people want me to or not :)) I have been doing this long enough that several people I helped mentor have gone on to 'better' things sometimes at the same company sometimes elsewhere. Which is fine by me, those better things often involve managing people, which I have never had any interest in doing.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
I don't have a team, I work alone. Are you saying I should play with myself? ;P :-O :-O
"Now the movie gets X-rated." Howard Wolowitz
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One would think that would be common sense, right? Unfortunately, I have run across many programmers throughout my career who want to "hoard" all of their knowledge. Whether it is because they want job security or just want to feel superior to other programmers, I don't know. I do know that when I encounter them, if I cannot change their outlook, I send 'em packing.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
True, to a point, but not always. I agree with you that under many circumstances it’s best to help those around you. A rising tide raises all ships. There was a time, (29, 25 years ago) I aspired to be a ‘vast store of information’ - to have an answer for most questions. Over time my co-workers found it more expedient to ask me instead of learning/remembering for themselves. It became too burdensome. Consider also the co-worker that asks, and is answered, only to ask again, the same question, days weeks or months later. Lastly, consider that sometimes the direct, efficacious answer may involve considerations and complexities greater than the co-worker’s level of expertise with that platform. So answering may open a path to more problems. So, if you’re cranky because someone isn’t helping you, perhaps you should ask why they’re not being helpful. If they’re truly an information hoarder whose habit is to disadvantage others as opposed to helping the group effort, then they’ll not get far in life. Good luck! :)
Time is the differentiation of eternity devised by man to measure the passage of human events. - Manly P. Hall Mark Just another cog in the wheel
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
I don't know about you, but I have a lot more trouble finding anyone that wants to even know my unique knowledge and skillset, which unfortunately leaves me pigeonholed for some things, despite my role having grown beyond it. I'd be more than happy to share so that I could take a full-time position on program that didn't leave me still helping with those items. When I ask management to make sure that the next person they hire have the ability or desire to learn these skills to backfill me, they put it at low priority and hire someone without the desire or skills. I'd like the rest of the team to be team players too. /rant
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True, to a point, but not always. I agree with you that under many circumstances it’s best to help those around you. A rising tide raises all ships. There was a time, (29, 25 years ago) I aspired to be a ‘vast store of information’ - to have an answer for most questions. Over time my co-workers found it more expedient to ask me instead of learning/remembering for themselves. It became too burdensome. Consider also the co-worker that asks, and is answered, only to ask again, the same question, days weeks or months later. Lastly, consider that sometimes the direct, efficacious answer may involve considerations and complexities greater than the co-worker’s level of expertise with that platform. So answering may open a path to more problems. So, if you’re cranky because someone isn’t helping you, perhaps you should ask why they’re not being helpful. If they’re truly an information hoarder whose habit is to disadvantage others as opposed to helping the group effort, then they’ll not get far in life. Good luck! :)
Time is the differentiation of eternity devised by man to measure the passage of human events. - Manly P. Hall Mark Just another cog in the wheel
There was no particular incident that triggered this post. I'm just passing along advice based on my 30 years on the industry. More than ever, teams need to be cohesive and supportive units in which the stronger senior developers mentor junior developers. Anyone who will not share knowledge that will benefit the team and/or the project is a detriment. Try to change their behavior first, but if they refuse to change then, in the long run, the team is better off without that coder.
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I have observed during my decades as a programmer that if you possess certain knowledge/skills and refuse to share that with the rest of the development team, you are an impediment to the team's proper functioning and should be removed from the team.
it's actually my biggest gripe, in not only development but anything technical, we don't need primadonnas on the team. we need people who show their support by volunteering information, not hording it.
