Is it more difficult to find work as an older developer?
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Quote:
I have frequently at past 40 age (52) coded 2 or 3, 20year olds into the ground.
That's not the question. The question is: would the 52 years old you code into the ground the 30 years old you?
Mircea
quite possibly. I remember working as a 28 year old with a guy who was 50 something. I learned so much from Ron. and he got his crap done and then went home. and I was still struggling. So yes I believe an experienced 50 year old could be 30 year old Rod.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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I'm 67 and got my current contract when I was 61 - I've always kept up with the latest tech and I can hold my own with most people - as JSOP once said I'm old I know stuff :-D
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
I could have written that myself. Over the last 4 years I managed a transition from a desktop programmer to an ASP.NET programmer and made my employers happy. But people look at me and assume I'm over the hill.
Recursion is for programmers who haven't blown enough stacks yet.
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quite possibly. I remember working as a 28 year old with a guy who was 50 something. I learned so much from Ron. and he got his crap done and then went home. and I was still struggling. So yes I believe an experienced 50 year old could be 30 year old Rod.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
Good for you in this case! In my case, at a point I realized the 30 years old me would run circles around the 60 years old me. I was working for a very good guy/company so I thought I cannot in good conscience ask for a raise. Also, other things outside my work became very important and I decided to draw a line. Each one has a different path but I still believe age is a difficult obstacle to overcome for professional programmers.
Mircea
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Older developers have wives and lives, and aren't as willing to work 60+ hour weeks. Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries. Older developers typically have lower tolerance for corporate absurdity. Older developers are less receptive to "change for the sake of change", and would rather wring every last drop of usefulness out of "legacy" APIs than inject new untested code into the main project branch. Older developers are often viewed as rude and opinionated, when in fact, they're just being pragmatic. Most managers can't even spell "pragmatic". So yeah, it's harder for older developers to find work.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Slacker007 wrote:
I have to disagree with you
Fine, but that just means that your experience and generalisations are different to mine.
I will leave this discussion with this fact. It is a medical and scientific fact (not opinion) that as we age, our memory and cognitive function declines.
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Older developers have wives and lives, and aren't as willing to work 60+ hour weeks. Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries. Older developers typically have lower tolerance for corporate absurdity. Older developers are less receptive to "change for the sake of change", and would rather wring every last drop of usefulness out of "legacy" APIs than inject new untested code into the main project branch. Older developers are often viewed as rude and opinionated, when in fact, they're just being pragmatic. Most managers can't even spell "pragmatic". So yeah, it's harder for older developers to find work.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Older developers are closer to retirement and can't be bothered to play the game anymore. :laugh:
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Younger ones are cheaper: and there is an impression that this is a Young Man's Game. Problem is the ones that can code are generally those that are still in the industry after 30 years, not those who just escaped from college ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
So thats the reason for this?
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I will leave this discussion with this fact. It is a medical and scientific fact (not opinion) that as we age, our memory and cognitive function declines.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
You have to find an "old" company owner. And I stress "owner". You'll never get past HR or the "we're a young company" manager types.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
It's mainly more difficult to want to work. Ah, the exuberance of youth, the "really, more of this BS?" of experience.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
Older developers have the experience to demand more money. Cheapskate employers want the work done as cheaply as possible. Younger people are much more willing to do the work for a lot less money. It's really not much more complicated than that. Myself, I'm 48, and work with a 63- and a 57-year old. Over the last few years we've also hired people in their mid-20s and 30s. I wouldn't trade working with these older people for anything in the world...whereas the younger ones don't last long because they can't deliver. As far as I'm concerned, there's also a work ethics problem with the younger ones--and as much as I hate to generalize, they're all proving me wrong. We all work remotely, and all make ourselves available to everybody else throughout the core hours (chat through IM, voice calls, etc). At least us older guys do. The younger guys can go without a response for hours at a time.
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Older developers have wives and lives, and aren't as willing to work 60+ hour weeks. Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries. Older developers typically have lower tolerance for corporate absurdity. Older developers are less receptive to "change for the sake of change", and would rather wring every last drop of usefulness out of "legacy" APIs than inject new untested code into the main project branch. Older developers are often viewed as rude and opinionated, when in fact, they're just being pragmatic. Most managers can't even spell "pragmatic". So yeah, it's harder for older developers to find work.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013#realJSOP wrote:
Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries.
As a generalisation that may be true. However there comes a point where a good developer is in it more for the kicks than the money. If they're coding because they can, because it's part of their lifestyle, because they enjoy it; and the mortgage is paid, the kids have left home, they can afford to pick the work they want to do and may not be so fussed about the hourly rate. And underlying all the above comments about productivity, is value-for-money. If someone is working smarter not harder, they're giving more bang for the buck. Speaking personally, and addressing the OP's actual question: no, I'm finding it easier to acquire work the older I get. Note I say "acquire" not "find", because I haven't looked for work in years; work looks for me, and if I like it, I take it. (Though no actual new clients for a few years now, by choice!)
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You have to find an "old" company owner. And I stress "owner". You'll never get past HR or the "we're a young company" manager types.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
Experienced developers are not fresh noobs out of school with a great resume. They have or should have developed a network. If an older developer is doing battle with HR, they've picked the wrong battle. +5 to everything John said. An older developer cannot play the same game as some 20 something. The op needs to think more outside of the box and not play the corporate game. Right now, I'm looking for a FORTRAN person who can help migrate / rewrite an application into the 21st century. But that means I get nothing but expensive old farts :) like me. As for cognitive ability, I declare BS for that argument. The issue is so much larger as others have commented. Our industry is very, very broad. Being fast with an elegant solution to the wrong problem (and I've seen a lot of those for you whiz kids) means I just make more $$ being happy to help.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Older developers have the experience to demand more money. Cheapskate employers want the work done as cheaply as possible. Younger people are much more willing to do the work for a lot less money. It's really not much more complicated than that. Myself, I'm 48, and work with a 63- and a 57-year old. Over the last few years we've also hired people in their mid-20s and 30s. I wouldn't trade working with these older people for anything in the world...whereas the younger ones don't last long because they can't deliver. As far as I'm concerned, there's also a work ethics problem with the younger ones--and as much as I hate to generalize, they're all proving me wrong. We all work remotely, and all make ourselves available to everybody else throughout the core hours (chat through IM, voice calls, etc). At least us older guys do. The younger guys can go without a response for hours at a time.
you speak wisely. I have lived this. Youngster (not being disrespectful) came to me with a critical issue, deadlines, etc. It was Friday 4pm. I said, "hey, meet me in the lab tomorrow at 7am..." He gave me *that* look :omg: or :wtf: "but tomorrow is Saturday, I don't work weekends...." immediately me, the old fossil realized it wasn't that much of an emergency.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
As a South African and someone who has been coding for 40 years, I don't believe it is a local market problem nor is it only with regards to developers. Price may be an issue, but you get what you pay for. It is not about skill level. There is a perception that old people only know old stuff. A good techie can and will adapt to new technologies, or they wouldn't still be in the industry. I believe one of the main reasons is that youngsters are naive and are easier to mold into a culture and adapt to a management style. Us old dogs don't like being taught new tricks.
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
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#realJSOP wrote:
Older developers are a lot more skilled, and demand higher salaries.
As a generalisation that may be true. However there comes a point where a good developer is in it more for the kicks than the money. If they're coding because they can, because it's part of their lifestyle, because they enjoy it; and the mortgage is paid, the kids have left home, they can afford to pick the work they want to do and may not be so fussed about the hourly rate. And underlying all the above comments about productivity, is value-for-money. If someone is working smarter not harder, they're giving more bang for the buck. Speaking personally, and addressing the OP's actual question: no, I'm finding it easier to acquire work the older I get. Note I say "acquire" not "find", because I haven't looked for work in years; work looks for me, and if I like it, I take it. (Though no actual new clients for a few years now, by choice!)
DerekT-P wrote:
Speaking personally, and addressing the OP's actual question: no, I'm finding it easier to acquire work the older I get. Note I say "acquire" not "find", because I haven't looked for work in years; work looks for me, and if I like it, I take it. (Though no actual new clients for a few years now, by choice!)
It reads that you are freelancing / working on your own. In this case and with a strong portfolio... yes. But the OP is speaking about being employee and looking for another job in a company. That's totally different, and age might be a disadvantage
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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As a South African and someone who has been coding for 40 years, I don't believe it is a local market problem nor is it only with regards to developers. Price may be an issue, but you get what you pay for. It is not about skill level. There is a perception that old people only know old stuff. A good techie can and will adapt to new technologies, or they wouldn't still be in the industry. I believe one of the main reasons is that youngsters are naive and are easier to mold into a culture and adapt to a management style. Us old dogs don't like being taught new tricks.
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
Wizard of Sleeves wrote:
Us old dogs don't like being taught new tricks. bullshit
FTFY :-D
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
I can only speak from personal experience. I'm 64 yrs old and have switched jobs 4 times in the last 6 years, the first time because I worked at the previous job for almost 10 years and thought a change might do me good, then two times because I didn't like the company culture and the last time was because of the covid pandemic. My last job was really pleasant and I was heartbroken when they had to let me go due to the circumstances but I landed my current job within 2 weeks after applying and I'm equally happy here. Being open to constantly learning new skills and technology is key to staying relevant, obviously, and frankly it's what has kept me going all these years. I would have died off slowly in a job where I'd have to do the same thing over and over for years on end. So yeah, if you're willing to learn new skills on a regular basis, and keep up with current tech, you can get employed even at an advanced age, at least that's the current employment situation in the Netherlands where I live.
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I could have written that myself. Over the last 4 years I managed a transition from a desktop programmer to an ASP.NET programmer and made my employers happy. But people look at me and assume I'm over the hill.
Recursion is for programmers who haven't blown enough stacks yet.
I sold my first program as a student December 1971. 50 years later I'm still coding and I enjoy it. My official title is IT Manager but I leave the managing to ambitious youngsters while I code, tweak and refactor. Last year I switched from VB .Net to C# and now I'm starting to learn Python. I've never regretted this path and given the option I would do it again. Knuth wrote about the "Art of Computer Programming" and art it is. Every day I discover new things and enjoy the beauty I find in this art.
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Younger ones are cheaper: and there is an impression that this is a Young Man's Game. Problem is the ones that can code are generally those that are still in the industry after 30 years, not those who just escaped from college ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Well said!
