Is it more difficult to find work as an older developer?
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If the application were that special, I would agree. I've been looking for someone who can read and understand what a statement does. For me, trying to swap from FORTRAN source to C++ can make my head hurt from time to time.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
So you're saying that because the application "is not that special", it's OK to post a vague job description, and thereby compounding the problem ... and wasting the time of applicants in the process; I can think of no bigger sin. I don't believe in a canned resume. I study what the job requires, and write an "application" that targets the job (and company).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
One of the things I find a bit troubling is when you see a posting for a senior developer with 3-5 years in the core technology requirement. My own experience working with such developers (generally) is that is about the time to kick off the training wheels. (Some exceptions apply, but not many) So if 5 years of experience makes you a senior dev, what about us with 20, 30 or even 40 years of professional experience? Where do we fit in?
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I think effectiveness has to come down to how an older developer spent his career and the base knowledge they started with. Knowledge turnover in this field is extremely high. Understanding the core principles allows one to gain further knowledge more effectively. Where those who learn formulas to work with a technology that will become obsolete within 5 years are in trouble from day one. (i.e. boot camp and problem based self taught victims) The vast amount of knowledge required to truly be effective and make critical design decisions spanning many technologies takes years to acquire. And this may be a point where your interest and your employer's interests diverge. They need you to get the project done and know an investment in you may not be around in 2 years. You have a future you need to protect. So it is easy to see how so many would become stranded. So an older developer who learned how to "work in a technology" that has become obsolete and did not aggressively acquire new skills and knowledge is in serious trouble when you consider the impact of life, family, and degeneration. Degeneration also varies greatly based on ones attention to exercising ones mind. On the other hand, one who started with a good foundation and aggressively fed their knowledge is probably in a position to "out develop" 30 "new kids" based on the ability to make proper decisions and not waste time hunting for information or going down bad paths due to a lack of experience. In essence, there is no "standard" for effectiveness over age. It depends on the individual. Then again, those who are hiring might have their own personal agenda also based on how the new hire will impact their own future. Make sure you are an asset and you will never have anything to worry about.
Dave B
I've spent the last 15 years working as a contractor and consultant in software design and development. And one thing that is clear is each contract is different, and you have to constantly learn new technologies in order to stay relevant for each of your clients. To me, that is just part of the profession, just like it is for other professionals such as medical doctors or engineers, or any other field where the technology is always changing. In my last contract, I worked for a government agency with a union IT shop. The managers are largely untechnical, and the IT staffers don't seem to be very motivated to learn any new technologies on their own time. Some of these developers have been there 20+ years, maxed out their benefits, and have very little drive or enthusiasm for what they do there. And it showed in the amount of technical debt and the use of obsolete technologies in their various projects. I agree that as we age, we do lose some cognitive abilities. But that is counterbalanced by the experience we bring, the ability to properly architect and design a system. And we have learned how to learn, to pick up new languages and technologies as appropriate. (I should also mention that before starting my contracting career, I spent 25+ years before that as an employee at a number of software companies)
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Good for you in this case! In my case, at a point I realized the 30 years old me would run circles around the 60 years old me. I was working for a very good guy/company so I thought I cannot in good conscience ask for a raise. Also, other things outside my work became very important and I decided to draw a line. Each one has a different path but I still believe age is a difficult obstacle to overcome for professional programmers.
Mircea
It might be true when it comes to standard work, but then you run into an unexpected design issue. Seems to happen every day with my current contract. The younger developers are grinding through their tasks, and I am taking a bit longer. But then they come across an application using some technology new to them, such as writing an installer in WIX, and get stuck in how to proceed. They know that they can ask me for my help and experience, especially as I have worked with installer tech and WIX for over 10 years. This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning. I should also mention that while these younger developers are whipping through their work, I am taking the time to understand the context of the code I am working on, cleaning up stranded code, searching for security vulnerabilities in outdated packages, and other similar cleanup work. I like to leave a project in better shape than when I found it....
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Experienced developers are not fresh noobs out of school with a great resume. They have or should have developed a network. If an older developer is doing battle with HR, they've picked the wrong battle. +5 to everything John said. An older developer cannot play the same game as some 20 something. The op needs to think more outside of the box and not play the corporate game. Right now, I'm looking for a FORTRAN person who can help migrate / rewrite an application into the 21st century. But that means I get nothing but expensive old farts :) like me. As for cognitive ability, I declare BS for that argument. The issue is so much larger as others have commented. Our industry is very, very broad. Being fast with an elegant solution to the wrong problem (and I've seen a lot of those for you whiz kids) means I just make more $$ being happy to help.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
With respect to declining cognitive ability, I think it happens to everyone with age. But if we keep exercising our brain, learning and applying new techniques and technologies, it can grately slow down this decline. I know that there are times when my memory about general things have faded a bit. But with respect to software technology it is all there. I have spent the last 5 years learning and working with Azure technologies with no issue. And at the same time if I had to, I could go back and write assembler code for DOS (no laughing, I actually had a significant DOS app to work on a few years ago). Use it or lose it...
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I've spent the last 15 years working as a contractor and consultant in software design and development. And one thing that is clear is each contract is different, and you have to constantly learn new technologies in order to stay relevant for each of your clients. To me, that is just part of the profession, just like it is for other professionals such as medical doctors or engineers, or any other field where the technology is always changing. In my last contract, I worked for a government agency with a union IT shop. The managers are largely untechnical, and the IT staffers don't seem to be very motivated to learn any new technologies on their own time. Some of these developers have been there 20+ years, maxed out their benefits, and have very little drive or enthusiasm for what they do there. And it showed in the amount of technical debt and the use of obsolete technologies in their various projects. I agree that as we age, we do lose some cognitive abilities. But that is counterbalanced by the experience we bring, the ability to properly architect and design a system. And we have learned how to learn, to pick up new languages and technologies as appropriate. (I should also mention that before starting my contracting career, I spent 25+ years before that as an employee at a number of software companies)
Going back to the original question, employers tend to hire people under 40. I started my professional development career when I was 21, working for bleeding-edge companies and getting laid off on a regular basis. When I turned 40, no one would hire me. Not a problem. I became a consultant and got a good number of jobs until I retired at the age of 62. Still, working 10+ years later, but not for an employer or as a contractor. What I do now is "fun work", selling a few products on the internet. So, yes, younger developers are cheaper and are generally the ones who get employed. Older developers are more experienced and usually have a broad enough experience that allows them to be a one-person show who can do all the work necessary from conception to development. Not every company can afford the staff needed to do a project, so a single, talented consultant is the best solution. Most talented consultants tend to be older (over 40). Mike
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It might be true when it comes to standard work, but then you run into an unexpected design issue. Seems to happen every day with my current contract. The younger developers are grinding through their tasks, and I am taking a bit longer. But then they come across an application using some technology new to them, such as writing an installer in WIX, and get stuck in how to proceed. They know that they can ask me for my help and experience, especially as I have worked with installer tech and WIX for over 10 years. This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning. I should also mention that while these younger developers are whipping through their work, I am taking the time to understand the context of the code I am working on, cleaning up stranded code, searching for security vulnerabilities in outdated packages, and other similar cleanup work. I like to leave a project in better shape than when I found it....
As I said, we all have different paths and, for sure, different brains so I'm not going to argue too much.
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This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning.
Agreed. We can be very useful to help the younger ones but what I was talking about was coding. Don't know about others, but me, when I look at code I wrote when I was 30-35 years old, I'm in awe how nice and clean it is; tight, everything fits, no loose ends. I long for the time when I would go through a 300 pages API in an afternoon and then know it. Not just knowing that something exists but actually knowing the API calls and parameters and all. Those were the good days and I feel grateful I had the chance to enjoy them. I just feel that now it's the time to move aside and eventually try to pass some of that experience to those who come behind. Thos who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. Those who cannot do and cannot teach, manage. :D
Mircea
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Agreed - if only the employers can see it this way. There's also the notion that developers must move on and become managers, which is not something I'm keen to do. I'd rather keep on developing software. I could start to look at other non people management paths like design / architecture.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
Because of the growth rate of software jobs, the average first-level manager is about 30. A person with that little experience cannot understand the value of experience because he doesn't have any. What he does understand is that the resume of a person with 30 years of experience doesn't look like the resumes of his best workers, who are also around 30. He may decide your experience is irrelevant. But you demand for more pay is extremely relevant. Being as old as his dad may also be a negative.
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Yeah, I think you missed his point. age is NOT THE Determinant here that many think it is. At 54, I am slowing down. I cannot possibly do a 27 hr straight programming session, as I have in the old days. Heck, I did a 16hr day and it jacked up my sleep for 3 days, and threw off fasting/eating schedule. So, yeah, we get older. We get slower. It's true of EVERY career. In the old days, the old plumbers, electricians, etc. were mentors to the new kids coming in. (How much has brick laying changed in 300 years? Not that much!) But in this WONDERFUL career, we can create our own custom tools that augment how we see the world. I was able to use a VM, restore, re-run a test with a subtle change, and copy/past 700,000 loglines into excel, and do a column by column by row comparison, excluding the date/time columns in a few minutes. It's about a 1hr full cycle. But I started on Paper Terminals. I Wrote custom programs to compare log files in the 1980s. And to compare Master-File before/after effects of code changes, or to produce change logs. Which could THEN be compared. The point. The tools changed. The DANG TOOLS CHANGE DAILY! You could put me back in front of that PDP-11 today, and inside of a few hours, it would feel almost natural to me. But I now have 4 versions of 1 IDE, Rider, DataGrip, UltraEdit, NP++, PHPStorm, etc. etc. etc. And every project I move to, they have 10 different tools. Oh, and they are all updated constantly, even with breaking changes. THIS IS WHERE MY AGE SHOWS. I remember leaving the MSFT camp and going Borland. Why? MSFT broke their C++ Compiler and stopped supporting 16 bit code generation. We had to maintain a 16 bit library, and the lead (younger) developer made EVERYTHING into New 32 bit code, using NEW Compiler features MSFT did not add into the 16 bit C++ Compiler. [The developer was UPSET that I found I could compile the code with BC++ as if I was dragging the company down the past... Without thinking that we had THOUSANDS of customers that were not going to 32 bit development any time soon. My next project was a Thunking layer, so we could actually call his code from 16 bit code. IRRESPONSIBLE to choose the path he chose!] Anyways, we make more mistakes when we are younger, and we are more likely to go down some bad paths, or not see the writing on the wall. I believe I am a better developer, overall. I am a bit slower, but I am a LOT more thorough, and a LOT LESS Likely to make a fatal design mistake! But it is a bit of a young perso
I didn't see a lot of change in my developer field (embedded design/programming). Things seemed to change rather slowly for me. For the last 20+ years of my career it was programming in C/C++. I might have to learn some minor difference in the RTOSes I'm using but other than that it's C/C++ coding. Tool wise, there really wasn't much of a difference between the IDE's I used. I did have to learn new algorithms. Mostly DSP related (filters, tone generation/detection, etc). It was fun to step into DSP programming (after the age of 50!).
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I didn't see a lot of change in my developer field (embedded design/programming). Things seemed to change rather slowly for me. For the last 20+ years of my career it was programming in C/C++. I might have to learn some minor difference in the RTOSes I'm using but other than that it's C/C++ coding. Tool wise, there really wasn't much of a difference between the IDE's I used. I did have to learn new algorithms. Mostly DSP related (filters, tone generation/detection, etc). It was fun to step into DSP programming (after the age of 50!).
Yeah, look, if I was at Chevron doing PL/X and COBOL, I am sure not much would have changed. But admittedly, I wanted to write software for people/companies. And then on the internet side, software as a service (ASP back in the day, and NOT web pages). I have a friend who worked on the Kernal for Solaris. And is working in debugging for the big Storage Companies. Still doing the same stuff (Heavy C/ASM/Memory dumps... Reading through a core dump like it's a story). There are jobs out there that don't change constantly, which is good. They are NOT usually customer driven solutions!
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Because of the growth rate of software jobs, the average first-level manager is about 30. A person with that little experience cannot understand the value of experience because he doesn't have any. What he does understand is that the resume of a person with 30 years of experience doesn't look like the resumes of his best workers, who are also around 30. He may decide your experience is irrelevant. But you demand for more pay is extremely relevant. Being as old as his dad may also be a negative.
I just retired!!! My last position I was filling 2 roles, sometimes 3. (Scrum Master / Mainframe/ .Net programmer) Why? well, I volunteered ....Silly I know but it allowed me to remain current and employed for the last couple of years. Besides it was fun learning something new. Years ago, I worked as a contractor for a company supporting a major player in the mainframe market. We had to rewrite some assembler routines. I was getting through it slowly. One of the senior senior people (70) came over to see how I was doing. We started talking about it, he sat down and started coding assembler. The code flowed from his fingers as easily as watching water flow downhill. He finished in 2 hours what would have taken me 6 hours to complete. I remember talking to him about it, his only comment was "takes a bit of practice". He spent some time helping me to improve my assembler language coding skills. That is one of the reasons why you should have senior people hanging around.
Cegarman document code? If it's not intuitive, you're in the wrong field :D
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Yeah, I think you missed his point. age is NOT THE Determinant here that many think it is. At 54, I am slowing down. I cannot possibly do a 27 hr straight programming session, as I have in the old days. Heck, I did a 16hr day and it jacked up my sleep for 3 days, and threw off fasting/eating schedule. So, yeah, we get older. We get slower. It's true of EVERY career. In the old days, the old plumbers, electricians, etc. were mentors to the new kids coming in. (How much has brick laying changed in 300 years? Not that much!) But in this WONDERFUL career, we can create our own custom tools that augment how we see the world. I was able to use a VM, restore, re-run a test with a subtle change, and copy/past 700,000 loglines into excel, and do a column by column by row comparison, excluding the date/time columns in a few minutes. It's about a 1hr full cycle. But I started on Paper Terminals. I Wrote custom programs to compare log files in the 1980s. And to compare Master-File before/after effects of code changes, or to produce change logs. Which could THEN be compared. The point. The tools changed. The DANG TOOLS CHANGE DAILY! You could put me back in front of that PDP-11 today, and inside of a few hours, it would feel almost natural to me. But I now have 4 versions of 1 IDE, Rider, DataGrip, UltraEdit, NP++, PHPStorm, etc. etc. etc. And every project I move to, they have 10 different tools. Oh, and they are all updated constantly, even with breaking changes. THIS IS WHERE MY AGE SHOWS. I remember leaving the MSFT camp and going Borland. Why? MSFT broke their C++ Compiler and stopped supporting 16 bit code generation. We had to maintain a 16 bit library, and the lead (younger) developer made EVERYTHING into New 32 bit code, using NEW Compiler features MSFT did not add into the 16 bit C++ Compiler. [The developer was UPSET that I found I could compile the code with BC++ as if I was dragging the company down the past... Without thinking that we had THOUSANDS of customers that were not going to 32 bit development any time soon. My next project was a Thunking layer, so we could actually call his code from 16 bit code. IRRESPONSIBLE to choose the path he chose!] Anyways, we make more mistakes when we are younger, and we are more likely to go down some bad paths, or not see the writing on the wall. I believe I am a better developer, overall. I am a bit slower, but I am a LOT more thorough, and a LOT LESS Likely to make a fatal design mistake! But it is a bit of a young perso
As an "older Programmer" 40+ years experience in hardware and software, my experience shows it depends on who you are dealing with. I left the corporate world and startups years ago, been consulting since. Most of my clients do not understand the cost of building a product, hence they want to hire you on the cheap, which I refuse to do. If you want my years of experience than you have to pay the price. I can't tell you how many projects I have rescued or fixed because the "newbie's totally screwed it up or the budget/expectations were unrealistic. The H1B visas are not helping things here for American programmers. I only take jobs now from people I can work with that cooperate to get to the finish line, so I pass up many deals that look good on paper but are just a headache in the long run. The key factor here is to make it work for the client, they are all results oriented and don't want to hear 'I wish I did this differently'or 'I'll fix it in the next release' They can't budget your time on this, so understanding the monetary and marketing constraints they are under goes along way to keeping employed. there is plenty of work, you just have to search it out. We need to get back to apprenticing the young programmers. Only actual experience will make them better. Ken
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So you're saying that because the application "is not that special", it's OK to post a vague job description, and thereby compounding the problem ... and wasting the time of applicants in the process; I can think of no bigger sin. I don't believe in a canned resume. I study what the job requires, and write an "application" that targets the job (and company).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
No I'm not doing that all ffs. You people need to lay off the caffeine and stop jumping ravines to reach conclusions. If you were actually able to maintain context - or just read the previous few posts, you would see that the system I am speaking of is NOT what other poster inferred. Since you don't know the first elephanting thing about the system I've worked with for 20 years, bugger off. I've tried youngsters who want $$ but aren't willing to learn what the project requires. They don't see ooo shiny, off they go. But we're talking about older developers getting work. There's that context thing coming back...
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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No I'm not doing that all ffs. You people need to lay off the caffeine and stop jumping ravines to reach conclusions. If you were actually able to maintain context - or just read the previous few posts, you would see that the system I am speaking of is NOT what other poster inferred. Since you don't know the first elephanting thing about the system I've worked with for 20 years, bugger off. I've tried youngsters who want $$ but aren't willing to learn what the project requires. They don't see ooo shiny, off they go. But we're talking about older developers getting work. There's that context thing coming back...
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
And what is also despicable (as an "employer"): "I have a number in mind, guess what it is; and if you guess wrong ...". I have yours.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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And what is also despicable (as an "employer"): "I have a number in mind, guess what it is; and if you guess wrong ...". I have yours.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
It's all sales.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I was never part of any "old boys' network" ... and I would never join a group that would have me as a member. And since it's against the law to ask for your age, the "battle" as you call it, only starts in the interview when you show up in a suit and they're wearing a t-shirt ... and yeah, I check the "company profile". Anyway, for the last 20 years all my work has been remote where I didn't have to submit a "picture". As for your "FORTRAN" requirement, that's a useless specification if one also has to know about mass equilibrium calculations or petrochemical fracturing. You need a better "job description". As for the $, my rate varies with the skill the job requires. It's your "general attitude", that slots all of us "old guys", that is part of the problem. "Old fart" is right. (And who is "John"?)
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
What is wrong with you? Did you miss the smiley? :doh:
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I think you nailed it on the head. Another aspect (I am 65) is that new fads in code development like agile and DevOps tend to be something programmers used to thinking find hard to accept whole cloth and hiring managers (or teams) my be leary of being questioned.
interviewed two decades ago with a company. The PM was a twit and the lead consultant was a pompous twit that could spout acronyms but didn't do anything. I solved a development issue the team was having in 30 seconds. Still didn't get the job. Pretty sure the twit figured out what I thought of him. One thing you have to realize. I rarely come across people who can actually hire people smarter than them. And it's getting worse.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
I have been working in various aspects of IT since 1966 after taking a programming course in college. Along with copious math & engineering classes, I took a programming class each semester and continued to work doing programming (I had to work my way through college, being the oldest of seven children & family no wealthy). Las year in school I got an off campus job doing programming for the company I eventually went to work for after graduation. I had intended to get into control systems work after graduating with a BSEE. Things being what they were in the US in 1970 when I left college, I ended up taking a job with a small company working in the electric power & steam power control field. Moved around a bit & ended up working for a company that was making aircraft simulators. Learned a whole lot about building device drivers, OS internals, etc. Job eventually moved me to Norfolk/VA Beach VA. During the 1980's I gradually moved away from pure programming. And worked out of town & traveled a lot. had a house to pay for. Fast forward to the nineties, back in VA, not much market for software developers in this area. Got into networking with DOS/NetWare & gradually networking token ring, ArcNet, Ethernet. Moved between jobs a lot businesses seemed to hire for a project & let you go. I also got involved with WIndows programming & eventually Windows NT. I eventually picked up some skills in working with wireless bar code devices. In 1997, landed at my present job working at a shipbuilder. First assignment, more barcode devices, and wireless (pre Wi-Fi), but also did all work on the architecting the system, building servers, installing databases, installing application software, and interfacing to SAP & mainframe. This naturally led to system engineering (in the IT space). Today, I am putting together High Performance clusters for this company. The first one I put together involved actually building out the facilities to turn a large room into a datacenter. This involves being a technical lead and being able to have a conversation with people with many different skills and get them working as a team to pull these things together in a working system. So this is a long winded preface to a couple of observations. Be able to communicate, both verbally & in writing. I worked a number of proposals where you have time limits, page limits, etc. You have to get your information to the customer in a way that they can understand and still stay within the limits. Being flexible; doing what you h
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What is wrong with you? Did you miss the smiley? :doh:
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
I was wondering why you singled me out for your "lecture", so I decided to take you up on it. Your responses put you in the "vague jobs to avoid category".
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food