My plea to all Developers
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Canada is metric. That's why all temperatures are in F, weights in lb and heights in feet and inches. :doh:
cheers Chris Maunder
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"Fourth of July" is a bad example. We don't normally swap in a holiday name in place of the date. Using your date, however, the date, when fully enunciated, is "July Fourth Seventeen Seventy Six" and the reverse is rarely if used at all. The ambiguity however is in date formatting for non-technical usage (else, YYYYMMDD). That being said, the ambiguity would really exist in a local wherein the common idiom is in one order and the written version reverses that order. Jumping on the bandwagon to accommodate languages that use a reverse word order - why ? There is no ambiguity here - except for the (in our point of view) those who do it backwards elsewhere. I haven't spent enough time in Canada to know the common speech version. Perhaps this written format is a manifestation of yet another concession to Quebec ? What could be less ambiguous than to write something the same way it is said? We are on the proper side of the Atlantic - the "New World". Let the old world continue to fester in their traditions and take a fresh breath!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
In military terms (my theme for the day), my advice for him would be: Suck it up! :) Do they still say "RDAH"?
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
(or 25 Nisan 5781)
24 Μάρτιος, 7529 έτος κόσμου :D Seriously, either arrangement - little-endian ([day fraction], day, month, year) or big-endian (year, month, day, [day fraction]) would be OK. What I object to is the "mixed-endian" representation used in the US. It is inconsistent with the way we (including the USians) represent all other measurements. [day fraction] stands for any method of representing a day fraction, whether a [decimal fraction], [hour, minute, second], or [second, minute, hour].
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
I shall repeat: it is not a measurement - it is a label. Day number, perhaps as a fraction of the year - that is a measurement. Time of day, too. Date? Nope.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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You are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road. The "old" world civilisation clearly came before the "new" world civilization so should take precedence. Obviously when one says "4th of July, 1775" then the date should be 04/07/1775, as you USians say, duh!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
� Forogar � wrote:
ou are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road.
As usual, completely wrong on all counts. Old coming first has precedence? Well, that makes you a charter member of Luddites, United. The "Old World" is called just that for a reason: tired old inbred monarchies, dying languages (like French), class-based society and food I'd not give to a stray dog, etc. And the resistance to change - as in a little diversity to the gene pool (q.v., UK Royal Family)? Well, according to the news reports, Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly. I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot. Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland? Probably to feast the Big Macs!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Apart from the fact the imperial system has nice familiar names there are no advantages to using imperial but I guess some people will never change. I am only glad we were using the metric system when I did my engineering college course as some of the other imperial units are completely nuts.
Well no, other than you can divide a foot into exactly 2 parts, or 3, or 4, or 6, or 12, all without a decimal point or fraction in sight. Similarly if you want a smaller cake, you just divide the amount of flour by 2, or 4, or 8 - again all integral results. Or a gallon into 2, or 4, or 8.
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� Forogar � wrote:
ou are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road.
As usual, completely wrong on all counts. Old coming first has precedence? Well, that makes you a charter member of Luddites, United. The "Old World" is called just that for a reason: tired old inbred monarchies, dying languages (like French), class-based society and food I'd not give to a stray dog, etc. And the resistance to change - as in a little diversity to the gene pool (q.v., UK Royal Family)? Well, according to the news reports, Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly. I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot. Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland? Probably to feast the Big Macs!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Probably to feast the Big Macs!
That's never going to happen. McDonald's was a nice little burger place until the corporate criminal got involved and this is probably a metaphor for all that is wrong with the US today. However, since politics is frowned upon here I will avoid any further escalation of your deluded ranting! ;P
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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In military terms (my theme for the day), my advice for him would be: Suck it up! :) Do they still say "RDAH"?
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
Worth noting on that subject is that the US military use the "dd mmm yyyy" format
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
We are on the proper side of the Atlantic - the "New World". Let the old world continue to fester in their traditions and take a fresh breath!
I draw your attention to the fact that the [Monroe Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe\_Doctrine) appears to have lapsed. As long as nations in the "New World" and the "Old World" trade, there will be a need for agreed weights and measures and agreed methods of representing them. In most modern languages*, units are typically written in decreasing order of size (5 dollars and 21 cents = $5.21; 4 pounds, 3 shillings, and 9 pence = £4 3s 9d; 5 yards, 2 feet, and 4 inches = 5yd 2' 4"), the only exception being time. This alone makes the non-ISO 8601 formats suspect. * I'm told that in Arabic numbers are written from the digits up - one and twenty and three hundred.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Notable is that in Japan they use the big endian format for Addresses.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I shall repeat: it is not a measurement - it is a label. Day number, perhaps as a fraction of the year - that is a measurement. Time of day, too. Date? Nope.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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� Forogar � wrote:
ou are on the Left (not proper) side of the Atlantic but still drive on the wrong side of the road.
As usual, completely wrong on all counts. Old coming first has precedence? Well, that makes you a charter member of Luddites, United. The "Old World" is called just that for a reason: tired old inbred monarchies, dying languages (like French), class-based society and food I'd not give to a stray dog, etc. And the resistance to change - as in a little diversity to the gene pool (q.v., UK Royal Family)? Well, according to the news reports, Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly. I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot. Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland? Probably to feast the Big Macs!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
tired old inbred monarchies,
Yup, true.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
dying languages (like French)
Not a monarchy, nor a dying language. Don't forget that lots of Afrikans speak French, as do some carribean parts.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Oprah apparently got a first-person account of how the Old World fixes things. I guess they want to go back to ugly. I mean, really. The whole damn place is shot.
I don't watch Oprah, no idea what you talking about. And yes; things getting ugly, we not supposed to be united like the US is. I hope we reverse that mistake soon, but don't expect that to happen; too many paychecks depend on unity.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Begs the question: why did you sample lots of Europe and settle in Maryland?
All of the US gives you a taste of Europe. Americans were built of European rejects. Prisoners and the like. The "new world" is one of criminals of the old one. That's just history. Documented history.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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As long as they will be things like national pride, country specific formats, as dumb as they may be, will not disappear. It will probably take decades to get rid of mm/dd/yyyy (which, while I understand the write-it-as-you-speak-it, has overall more disadvantages than advantages) It will take centuries to settle for imperial or metric ( I prefer metric because more straight forward to me, but I don't care as long as we settle for something) Flying cars is probably the only way of getting everybody to use the same side of the road for driving, and I am not even convinced about that. Maybe this will not be an issue anymore with autonomous driving.( You would not imagine what a waste of resources and time developing a left hand drive and right hand drive version of a car is). This, as well as many other things, would have been solved a long time ago if people had common sense. But ...
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write-it-as-you-speak-it
What about the 4th of July? Were Americans saying dd/mm/yyyy before but switched at some point, but "the 4th of July" stayed as is? Also it doesn't really make sense to me to start with month, then day, then year. Either go from less specific to more or the other way around, but don't mix them up. What time is it? It's 7 minutes, 35 seconds, 4 hours.
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Quote:
write-it-as-you-speak-it
What about the 4th of July? Were Americans saying dd/mm/yyyy before but switched at some point, but "the 4th of July" stayed as is? Also it doesn't really make sense to me to start with month, then day, then year. Either go from less specific to more or the other way around, but don't mix them up. What time is it? It's 7 minutes, 35 seconds, 4 hours.
Riz Thon wrote:
it doesn't really make sense to me to start with month, then day, then year
Me neither, but the write it as you speak was the argument brought here last time this was raised as a point in the Lounge
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Please, for the love of all things good in this world Stop using mm/dd/yyyy for the numerical date format Only the US, US jurisdictions, and Swahili in Kenya use this format, so 6/7/2021 means two completely different things to someone in the US and someone in the UK. Or NZ, Or Oz. Or, well, anywhere else really. Please: make dates unambiguous. Use month abbreviations like 6-Jul. Use yyyy-mm-dd if you have to. Or go crazy and sniff a user's preferences but that doesn't actually work because everyone in the US seems to think Canada uses the US format. Canada doesn't use the US format: It merely understands the US format which I find astounding. Show a Canadian 6/7 and they'll tell you the correct interpretation without context. It's a skill akin to national mind reading and I do not understand how they do it.
cheers Chris Maunder
The answer is ALWAYS to compromise and keep everyone somewhat happy. Therefore, I propose dm\dm\yyyy.
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Tony Hill wrote:
It is ordained that ...
Yea, verily! I've seen the light*, brother! :) * And it is an approaching train. Seriously, the only inherent advantages of the Metric system are that: 1. It eases conversions between units (cm in a kilometer is much easier to calculate than inches in a mile) 2. The Metric system has a MASS unit, while the Imperial system has a WEIGHT unit (of importance to natural scientists and to anyone or anything that goes into space) OTOH, only the US, Liberia, and Myanmar [still use the Imperial system](https://www.statista.com/chart/18300/countries-using-the-metric-or-the-imperial-system/), and the US, at least, uses a debased version where there are 16 fluid ounces to the pint, rather than the divinely ordained 20. Even in the US, scientists are taught the Metric system. I would say that the battle for metricization has been won.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
OTOH, only the US, Liberia, and Myanmar still use the Imperial system, and the US, at least, uses a debased version where there are 16 fluid ounces to the pint, rather than the divinely ordained 20. Even in the US, scientists are taught the Metric system.
And of course, those fluid ounces are different, the US fluid ounce being larger than the UK imperial ounce, so the pints are *almost* the same (though the US one is still smaller!)
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Please, for the love of all things good in this world Stop using mm/dd/yyyy for the numerical date format Only the US, US jurisdictions, and Swahili in Kenya use this format, so 6/7/2021 means two completely different things to someone in the US and someone in the UK. Or NZ, Or Oz. Or, well, anywhere else really. Please: make dates unambiguous. Use month abbreviations like 6-Jul. Use yyyy-mm-dd if you have to. Or go crazy and sniff a user's preferences but that doesn't actually work because everyone in the US seems to think Canada uses the US format. Canada doesn't use the US format: It merely understands the US format which I find astounding. Show a Canadian 6/7 and they'll tell you the correct interpretation without context. It's a skill akin to national mind reading and I do not understand how they do it.
cheers Chris Maunder
And MM/DD/YYYY doesn't sort lexically either.
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Tony Hill wrote:
It is ordained that ...
Yea, verily! I've seen the light*, brother! :) * And it is an approaching train. Seriously, the only inherent advantages of the Metric system are that: 1. It eases conversions between units (cm in a kilometer is much easier to calculate than inches in a mile) 2. The Metric system has a MASS unit, while the Imperial system has a WEIGHT unit (of importance to natural scientists and to anyone or anything that goes into space) OTOH, only the US, Liberia, and Myanmar [still use the Imperial system](https://www.statista.com/chart/18300/countries-using-the-metric-or-the-imperial-system/), and the US, at least, uses a debased version where there are 16 fluid ounces to the pint, rather than the divinely ordained 20. Even in the US, scientists are taught the Metric system. I would say that the battle for metricization has been won.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
And the circumference of the earth is easy to remember. Pole to Equator is 10000km. (was 'exactly', through Paris) :cool:
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I hope you're aware that metric time isn't dd/mm/yyyy nor ISO8601 or similar. In the original metric system, 250 or so years ago, a week was ten days. And every day was divided into decidays and centidays. This (luckily?) didn't catch on. But in 1954 when they created the SI-system they settled for the second as a base for time. So metric time is measured in decasecond, hectosecond, kilosecond or megasecond or gigasecond. I prefer ISO8601! :)
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Was that before or after the shift from days starting at Noon and running overnight? :zzz:
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Quote:
write-it-as-you-speak-it
What about the 4th of July? Were Americans saying dd/mm/yyyy before but switched at some point, but "the 4th of July" stayed as is? Also it doesn't really make sense to me to start with month, then day, then year. Either go from less specific to more or the other way around, but don't mix them up. What time is it? It's 7 minutes, 35 seconds, 4 hours.
But today is 07/04/2021 - It says so on my task bar. Not a celebration?
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But all the measurements are based on real objects that exist in the world about us. The metric system is just random numbers. For example who can remember (or visualise) that one meter is the length of the path travelled by light in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second?
Which is why some branches of physics use "natural" units - the speed of light == 1, etc.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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And I wish the UK would drop the idiotic metric system and revert to imperial. One of the many benefits of which, is that people need to use their brains when thinking about and calculating weights and measures.
I'm a 65 year old English engineer who was brought up on imperial and worked to it for many years - and its critics today simply don't understand the way that it was used! My first job in the real world was as a turner - manufacturing drive shafts for relatively large turbines on a lathe. All our engineering drawings were in imperial measurements - but that did not mean yards, feet, inches and eighths of an inch. The drawing I worked to told me that the shaft should be 103.5 inches long, 6.35 inches diameter and I should put a 5 thousandths of an inch chamfer on each edge. As a check after it came out of the lathe, I would weigh it and the specifications told me that the answer should be 537.88 ounces. Yes, the original definition of imperial measurements was pretty arcane - but it was not used that way for serious things. We used it as a metricated system with different basic units to the SI system. And I would say, as an aside, that the imperial units are more pragmatic than the metric ones. They were based on every-day life whereas the metric system was driven by the French who tend to like to base their systems on some academic and philosophical structure. Metric units tend to be too big or too small for pragmatic usage - if I'm measuring the width of a worktop or the diameter of a screw, I really don't give a damn whether or not the unit I'm using is some full decimal fraction of the circumference of the earth or the distance between the earth and the sun! If I'm ordering a glass of beer, I want to receive a quantity that is comfortable to lift but large enough that I'm not going to have to order another within the next few minutes! Martin