All your code are belong to us.
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My understanding is that typically those type of agreements only apply if the code you wrote on your own time is directly related to a field your company is in. The agreements I've seen don't seem intended to steal your personal work, they're to protect the company- otherwise you could take the techniques and knowledge they showed you and produce a competing product. And by the way, the developer has to sign the agreement, so there really isn't much moral high ground to stand on if you claim that companies who do this are Evil- the developer has agreed to accord the company some consideration and protection in exchange for a job. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, anybody who takes this as gospel is more than a little foolish :). Get a real lawyer to look over any agreement that seems questionable before you sign it. -- Eric
A Non-disclosure agreement protects a company's intellectual property. When I was beta testing for a company I signed a NDA stating I could not release a competing product for two years. It made since so I agreed. If they would have expected me to hand over any project I made I would have reconsidered.
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Depends on the country. This type of contract is useless in Switzerland, where we are free, unlike 'Mericins etc. :-O Old Simon HB9DRV
Free? What are your tax rates now about 70%. And with no "real" armed forces to maintain where is it all going :rolleyes:
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My understanding is that typically those type of agreements only apply if the code you wrote on your own time is directly related to a field your company is in. The agreements I've seen don't seem intended to steal your personal work, they're to protect the company- otherwise you could take the techniques and knowledge they showed you and produce a competing product. And by the way, the developer has to sign the agreement, so there really isn't much moral high ground to stand on if you claim that companies who do this are Evil- the developer has agreed to accord the company some consideration and protection in exchange for a job. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, anybody who takes this as gospel is more than a little foolish :). Get a real lawyer to look over any agreement that seems questionable before you sign it. -- Eric
What if a/ the statement in the contract is so general it applies to everything I engineer ( ours is so general if I took a knife to a log and made a likeness of Bon Jovi he could claim I had created it while working for him and so.... ) b/ the statement wasn't there on the version you signed, but on the subsequent copies in the office ? My employer was burned by a previous employee who has the gall to try and sue for the right to the code he wrote while here, as an employee. So I can understand the agreement being a little one sided. However, as an example, someone who works here left to join a game company and he was refused permission to send a copy of a game he wrote on his own time as an 'audition' because we own it here. He was given special dispensation to write something else to submit over a weekend. He still got the job. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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If I remember correctly, those agreements didn't stand up in court. But someone who has a clue would know better than me. (See Bill's reply to this message, he actually has that clue I was looking for.) Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Those agreements do stand up in US courts if you are an employee being paid salary or an hourly wage. However, if you inform your employer that you are writing software that does not pertain to your job capacity and the software is written on a computer that is not owned by the company, and they do not challenge your notification, then you in effect retain the copyright to the development. It is best to let them know once, then keep the lid on it forever. If it is good enough to market, then leave it up to them to pursue any discovery and never let any other employee gain knowledge or view the product at any company owned site. This I speak from experience and consultation with legal entities back some 5-years ago.
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Those agreements do stand up in US courts if you are an employee being paid salary or an hourly wage. However, if you inform your employer that you are writing software that does not pertain to your job capacity and the software is written on a computer that is not owned by the company, and they do not challenge your notification, then you in effect retain the copyright to the development. It is best to let them know once, then keep the lid on it forever. If it is good enough to market, then leave it up to them to pursue any discovery and never let any other employee gain knowledge or view the product at any company owned site. This I speak from experience and consultation with legal entities back some 5-years ago.
Ah, good. Someone who actually knows. :) 1) Inform - Hmm, I would love to research this more. 2) Does not pertain to your job capacity - To me this was a given. 3) Not done using company resources - To me this is also a given. 4) Notification not challenged - Sort of follows part 1. My statement was obviously way too broad. But I sort of assumed that people understood that #2 and #3 were a must. How important is #1? That to me is the legal question. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Ah, good. Someone who actually knows. :) 1) Inform - Hmm, I would love to research this more. 2) Does not pertain to your job capacity - To me this was a given. 3) Not done using company resources - To me this is also a given. 4) Notification not challenged - Sort of follows part 1. My statement was obviously way too broad. But I sort of assumed that people understood that #2 and #3 were a must. How important is #1? That to me is the legal question. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Statement number 2 is very broad as to how to define "within your job capacity". In my personal experience, I was hired as a Control Engineer. I happened to develop a product that was 100% devoted to Control Engineering, but my job description did not read that I was required to develop xyz software. My notification to the employer that I was developing software related to the Control Industry on my own time - at my own expense, covered me on this. If you are a game developer working on a specific title of "Alien 3" and you decide to develop a game on your own time and expense, then my understanding was that if you notified your employer of this intent, then they are required to inform you that they will seek control of the finished product, otherwise... I have always been instructed to challenge the statement in the employee hiring document that states what you design/develop on your own time is legally owned by them. I know others that have challenged this and were able to get it removed from the employment contract. The problem is that most employees don't even realize it was in their hiring contract until they decide to do something. It is pretty standard stuff that some employers have no problem with you taking exception to it before hand.
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Statement number 2 is very broad as to how to define "within your job capacity". In my personal experience, I was hired as a Control Engineer. I happened to develop a product that was 100% devoted to Control Engineering, but my job description did not read that I was required to develop xyz software. My notification to the employer that I was developing software related to the Control Industry on my own time - at my own expense, covered me on this. If you are a game developer working on a specific title of "Alien 3" and you decide to develop a game on your own time and expense, then my understanding was that if you notified your employer of this intent, then they are required to inform you that they will seek control of the finished product, otherwise... I have always been instructed to challenge the statement in the employee hiring document that states what you design/develop on your own time is legally owned by them. I know others that have challenged this and were able to get it removed from the employment contract. The problem is that most employees don't even realize it was in their hiring contract until they decide to do something. It is pretty standard stuff that some employers have no problem with you taking exception to it before hand.
If #2 or #3 is true (job capacity or using company equipment), it would seem obvious that you have to get #1. But, if #2 or #3 isn't true (My company does controls and you write a web server), then I really wonder if #1 would be required. That is the part of the law than I am wondering the most about. Luckally, Turbitrol didn't have that clause in our contracts. When my brother and I decided to make OmniServer, the company was informed since OmniServer is a industrial automation product and Turbitrol was in water treatment (which both are basically SCADA systems). If I was going to hire someone today, as an employer, I would try to get the IP clause and the non-competition clause into the contract. But, if push came to shove.... :) (Tired, not spell checked, deal with it) :) Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Depends on the country. This type of contract is useless in Switzerland, where we are free, unlike 'Mericins etc. :-O Old Simon HB9DRV
Well, we certainly aren't "free" here in the U.S., you're certainly right about that.
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What if a/ the statement in the contract is so general it applies to everything I engineer ( ours is so general if I took a knife to a log and made a likeness of Bon Jovi he could claim I had created it while working for him and so.... ) b/ the statement wasn't there on the version you signed, but on the subsequent copies in the office ? My employer was burned by a previous employee who has the gall to try and sue for the right to the code he wrote while here, as an employee. So I can understand the agreement being a little one sided. However, as an example, someone who works here left to join a game company and he was refused permission to send a copy of a game he wrote on his own time as an 'audition' because we own it here. He was given special dispensation to write something else to submit over a weekend. He still got the job. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hey, you are saying that it wasn't on the version you signed??? So, if you still have the version you signed (and you should always get one copy), then they are faking the contract, and THAT is totally illegal!
A version was circulated with ammendments which we all signed and were not given a copy of. I'm sure it wasn't on that one either, but I don't have a copy to prove it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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A version was circulated with ammendments which we all signed and were not given a copy of. I'm sure it wasn't on that one either, but I don't have a copy to prove it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I would expect that any amendmends would have to be negotiated and signed again actually. Maybe except the wages change, which typically is mentioned in the contract (so called re-evaluation). Actually, you could GPL your code posted here - it will fire back on any company that would claim it ;) First, they would have to expose the other code if they used it. Then, GPL can not be "rolled-back". Once GPL, always GPL ;)
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What if a/ the statement in the contract is so general it applies to everything I engineer ( ours is so general if I took a knife to a log and made a likeness of Bon Jovi he could claim I had created it while working for him and so.... ) b/ the statement wasn't there on the version you signed, but on the subsequent copies in the office ? My employer was burned by a previous employee who has the gall to try and sue for the right to the code he wrote while here, as an employee. So I can understand the agreement being a little one sided. However, as an example, someone who works here left to join a game company and he was refused permission to send a copy of a game he wrote on his own time as an 'audition' because we own it here. He was given special dispensation to write something else to submit over a weekend. He still got the job. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
a) Too bad, you signed it. If you didn't like it there's always another job somewhere. b) Shame on the company if they tried to hoodwink you, but ultimately it's your own fault for not keeping copies of your important documents. Wasn't trying to say that companies don't try to slide one past us every once in a while, just that you need to protect yourself. If you don't understand or feel uneasy about a contract clause, get your own lawyer to explain it to you- no reputable company will give you a 'sign now or never' ultimatum. -- Eric