Have I been working too hard?
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T really agree with Gary Wheeler's thoughtful caution about burn-out; with pride and money on the line it can be easy to stumble and slide into a spiral of diminishing returns where time spent increases and focus, concentration, and productivity decrease. On a physical level being aware of anxiety, of trouble sleeping, of sudden changes in eating/drinking patterns, of faster than usual triggering of anger or aggressive ideation, can clue you in to an increased level of stress, serve as a warning signal that something needs to change. I think there is an art to learning how to pace oneself in intense intellectual work, and, that there's no one-size fits all pattern for everyone. Your metabolism, your ingrained habits, your general health ... your context ... workplace ... the sense you have of being compelled to work versus having chosen to work ... imho, all these come into play. The extent of significant life changes in your recent past ... injury, trauma, loss of relationship, death of family member, moving to a new house, or new job ... can profoundly shape the extent to which you can mobilize for work. I can tell you what has helped me survive some periods of months of 12~14 hour days in the (distant) past at companies like Emerald City Software, and Adobe. 1) working out to the point of exhaustion (weights, treadmill, swimming) followed by sleep. 2) learning to recognize the difference between the sense of total exhaustion caused by mental over-work as not being equivalent to physical exhaustion ... although it feels like it ! it was common for me to force myself to work-out when I knew I could not be as physically tired as I felt, and, after an agonizing first 15 minutes of exercise, "btrak out" of the mental tiredness. 3) yoga, particularly pranayama practices 4) red-hot saunas followed by bathing in water as cold as possible 5) getting out in nature (forest, beach) for several hours at least once a week 6) talking, hanging-out, with friends who were not programmers :) Your mileage may (surely) vary, but, my experience as a counsellor (prior to becoming a geek in my forties) was that often one small, consciously chosen, change in patterns of behavior can trigger changes in perceptions, and other behaviors, that seem impossible to change if "faced head-on." cheers, Bill
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world
This is a classic example of "Death March Programming". You fall further and further behind, therefore you work more and more hours in an attempt to catch up. Eventually, you burn out or collapse. Others have pointed out good ways to avoid burnout or collapse. You must do one additional thing - tell Management that the schedule is unrealistic, and that it will slip. They will not like the bad news, but learning this sooner rather than later will enable them to make the appropriate adjustments. No job, no matter how lucrative, is worth burnout and/or destruction of your personal life. EDIT: should have been a reply to the OP. :-\
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
This is a classic example of "Death March Programming". You fall further and further behind, therefore you work more and more hours in an attempt to catch up. Eventually, you burn out or collapse. Others have pointed out good ways to avoid burnout or collapse. You must do one additional thing - tell Management that the schedule is unrealistic, and that it will slip. They will not like the bad news, but learning this sooner rather than later will enable them to make the appropriate adjustments. No job, no matter how lucrative, is worth burnout and/or destruction of your personal life.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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This is a classic example of "Death March Programming". You fall further and further behind, therefore you work more and more hours in an attempt to catch up. Eventually, you burn out or collapse. Others have pointed out good ways to avoid burnout or collapse. You must do one additional thing - tell Management that the schedule is unrealistic, and that it will slip. They will not like the bad news, but learning this sooner rather than later will enable them to make the appropriate adjustments. No job, no matter how lucrative, is worth burnout and/or destruction of your personal life.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
tell Management that the schedule is unrealistic, and that it will slip. They will not like the bad news, but learning this sooner rather than later will enable them to make the appropriate adjustments.
Good advice. It took me a very long time to learn to do that.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
I've had the displeasure of having to pull off an impossible deadline more than a few times...meaning long hours and weekends. X| The last one was my 'covid project' as it got the green light in mid March of last year, about the time everything started shutting down. I had 5 months (due mid August) to get it done. I have a colleague that helped with design and documentation but that was the only help I got. Honestly, I don't remember anything at all about the summer of 2020 except for being consumed with that one project, late hours and weekends. :sigh: On the release date, the client got a poorly tested (buggy) deliverable (website) that, while better than the system it was replacing, still needed a lot of work. Luckily, we have a great relationship with that client and as long as things were getting fixed/finished, they were happy. Over the course of the next few months, with more long hours and weekends, it became finished enough not to be my primary focus every day. These days, it finally 'hands off' for the most part and next month the annual contract comes due. Now, what did I get out of the long hours and stress? Possibly a mild heart attack in March of this year. :wtf: Seriously, I was at my desk and on the phone with one of that client's admin users discussing a new problem he had discovered (this guy seemed to enjoy reporting issues) when my chest tightened and my arms went numb. Now, 3 stents later, I'm taking around 8 pills a day to manage it with doctor visits every time I turn around. :( My advice based on my experience...whatever you do, don't let the stress and long hours negatively affect your mental/physical health. Find a way to decompress and make sure to make time for it. :) That said, I'm wondering if it's the number of hours or the lack of diversity that has got you down? 9-10 hours a day really isn't that bad so long as it doesn't become the norm. Good luck with your situation. :)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse "Hope is contagious"
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Your brain and pysche most have asbestos linings. Wish mine did.
Good luck.
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Lessons from an old bull :elephant:: Regardless of how many hours a day you work, or days in the week, if you're burning out it serves no purpose in the long run. The work you do will not be your best, you will make mistakes, and the whole process will take longer and longer. This is an excellent example of the law of diminishing returns. If you want to complete the project with a quality result, you will need to take a break now and then. Turn off the computer, turn off the phone, go outside and walk, bike, garden, or do something else physical. If you have a significant other, dress up, bring flowers and take them out to dinner, bring them home, and try to have the best sex in your life. Get away from the whole mess for a few hours.
Software Zen:
delete this;Indeed, good points ... Close to my place there is an excellent swimming pool of the university, so I go for a swim nearly each saturday afternoon all year long ... This is sufficent to recover, in my case ... To understand somehow how to stay in balance is crucial ... However, I also work on Saturday, but less than the other days ... :-)
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T really agree with Gary Wheeler's thoughtful caution about burn-out; with pride and money on the line it can be easy to stumble and slide into a spiral of diminishing returns where time spent increases and focus, concentration, and productivity decrease. On a physical level being aware of anxiety, of trouble sleeping, of sudden changes in eating/drinking patterns, of faster than usual triggering of anger or aggressive ideation, can clue you in to an increased level of stress, serve as a warning signal that something needs to change. I think there is an art to learning how to pace oneself in intense intellectual work, and, that there's no one-size fits all pattern for everyone. Your metabolism, your ingrained habits, your general health ... your context ... workplace ... the sense you have of being compelled to work versus having chosen to work ... imho, all these come into play. The extent of significant life changes in your recent past ... injury, trauma, loss of relationship, death of family member, moving to a new house, or new job ... can profoundly shape the extent to which you can mobilize for work. I can tell you what has helped me survive some periods of months of 12~14 hour days in the (distant) past at companies like Emerald City Software, and Adobe. 1) working out to the point of exhaustion (weights, treadmill, swimming) followed by sleep. 2) learning to recognize the difference between the sense of total exhaustion caused by mental over-work as not being equivalent to physical exhaustion ... although it feels like it ! it was common for me to force myself to work-out when I knew I could not be as physically tired as I felt, and, after an agonizing first 15 minutes of exercise, "btrak out" of the mental tiredness. 3) yoga, particularly pranayama practices 4) red-hot saunas followed by bathing in water as cold as possible 5) getting out in nature (forest, beach) for several hours at least once a week 6) talking, hanging-out, with friends who were not programmers :) Your mileage may (surely) vary, but, my experience as a counsellor (prior to becoming a geek in my forties) was that often one small, consciously chosen, change in patterns of behavior can trigger changes in perceptions, and other behaviors, that seem impossible to change if "faced head-on." cheers, Bill
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world
Thanks, Bill. Good points all around.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
If I'm accomplishing something by the end of each day, I know I'm not on a Death March.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
You've got to ask yourself (and probably management too)... What's worse, delivering late because you're a human being and not a machine, or not delivering at all because you're burned out at home? There's no harm in peaking before deadlines, but they have to be realistic. Also, if this is, or has become, the default mode of work, go sit down with your team and/or manager and talk it out. I know people who make these kind of days (heck, I used to be one of them), but not everyone can handle the same amounts of stress. If you're in the EU and you're getting a burn-out it's simply paid sick leave that can go on for months, no one wants that.
Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
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You've got to ask yourself (and probably management too)... What's worse, delivering late because you're a human being and not a machine, or not delivering at all because you're burned out at home? There's no harm in peaking before deadlines, but they have to be realistic. Also, if this is, or has become, the default mode of work, go sit down with your team and/or manager and talk it out. I know people who make these kind of days (heck, I used to be one of them), but not everyone can handle the same amounts of stress. If you're in the EU and you're getting a burn-out it's simply paid sick leave that can go on for months, no one wants that.
Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
I appreciate the advice. I am in the US, but the most European like city, New Orleans. Sadly, there is no paid sick leave. :( I guess I will just do the best I can and continue to haunt the Lounge. You folks are indeed my main source of srtess relief, and pleasure. :-O
It's hell getting old.
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
Can't quit because you get forced to finish ASAP externally, or can't quit because it's just so good in tickling your nerd brain, so you can't let go off it?
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
Time to quite.
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
Try 16-hour days, seven days a week. When I'm heads down, I forget to eat or sleep. But that's just me. I love this shit. At work, they started shutting down the dev VM's on weekends and holidays to save money, so I had to find something else top do with my time because I have no coding at home going on. :(
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
If it's not your company, that means you have a bad manager: preserve you health because when it's gone you will not get back and you will regret it. Do not tell me that a developer cannot find another job quickly because I don't believe it, or just change country, or renew your tech stack. And I don't think in your contract it's written that you MUST work so many hours. Also... why they don't give you more resources? If instead it's your company, then you did a bad job with the estimation, learn the lesson for the next time, but you can agree with your customer about a compromise, or earn less. Then when you are done with your job, it will be sleep in the limbo for weeks/months, and you will understand that your health was not worth it.
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Can't quit because you get forced to finish ASAP externally, or can't quit because it's just so good in tickling your nerd brain, so you can't let go off it?
A little of both I guess. Also not many folks would be willing to hire a 72 year old programmer, so that worries me too.
It's hell getting old. It beats the alternative only marginally.
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Try 16-hour days, seven days a week. When I'm heads down, I forget to eat or sleep. But that's just me. I love this shit. At work, they started shutting down the dev VM's on weekends and holidays to save money, so I had to find something else top do with my time because I have no coding at home going on. :(
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I'd not sure if you are my hero, or I should feel sorry for you. I am sure you are mush younger than I am. :-D :confused:
Wow!
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If it's not your company, that means you have a bad manager: preserve you health because when it's gone you will not get back and you will regret it. Do not tell me that a developer cannot find another job quickly because I don't believe it, or just change country, or renew your tech stack. And I don't think in your contract it's written that you MUST work so many hours. Also... why they don't give you more resources? If instead it's your company, then you did a bad job with the estimation, learn the lesson for the next time, but you can agree with your customer about a compromise, or earn less. Then when you are done with your job, it will be sleep in the limbo for weeks/months, and you will understand that your health was not worth it.
Please check my response to Member 916057 just above. Also, I work for my best friend and it is a small business. I am the only dev in the company. As far as moving to another country goes I would got to England in a heartbeat, if I had a job there doing as well.
It's never asa good or bad as it seems.
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A little of both I guess. Also not many folks would be willing to hire a 72 year old programmer, so that worries me too.
It's hell getting old. It beats the alternative only marginally.
72 is such a sweet, flexible, number: divisible by so many factors. It's at this tender age, and beyond, we can understand what Marcus Aurelius said:
Quote:
Duration: momentary. Nature: changeable. Perception: dim. Condition of Body: decaying. Soul: spinning around. Fortune: unpredictable. Lasting Fame: uncertain. Sum Up: The body and its parts are a river, the soul a dream and mist, life is warfare and a journey far from home, lasting reputation is oblivion. "Meditations"
And ... laugh, rather than reach for Prozac :wtf: cheers, Bill (age 77)
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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I have been working 9 to 10 hours a day on the same project, trying to finish it. I'm starting to get burned out, but can't quit until it's done. Have you ever been in this situation? what did you do about it? :confused::confused:
"Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall" - the Beatles "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" - Neil Young
Yes, I've been there. About a year before the big dot com bubble tanked I was working 7 days a week, 10-12 hour days to get our first demo done for the VC's. To relieve the stress, I went to the gym every night after work. It really help to take my mind off of work and it helped me sleep better. Unfortunately, a couple weeks after our successful demo, the bubble tanked and all the VC money evaporated.
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Sorry for your pain. My wife of 48 years bitches at me about it all the time. Thank God she feels like she can't live without me!
Dying is not an option. But I could really use the rest.
My wife of 45 years, worked alongside me at her own job as a marketing assistant and then as a legal assistant. Both of her jobs entailed overtime so she understood what I had to go through.
Steve Naidamast Sr. Software Engineer Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
