What the brain dead are talking about...
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Yes, this is really something to be concerned about. Its too damned bad we live in a society where parents try to give their children moral guidance. I'll be glad when we finally live in a society where all children get their morality from pop culture or from the state. "More capitalism, please..."
I swear that everytime you post, Chris has some logic in there that automatically gives you a 1 vote. Its uncanny.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Zachery wrote: Atheism logic: God doesn't exists because I can't see him. How about: God doesn't exist because I don't need him. "Things are more like they are now than they ever were before." -- Dwight Eisenhower
In order to say you don't need something, that something must have existed. Attn all Atheists: I want to know how everything got started. What's the atheists standpoint on how the universe got started. Where did the matter for the Big Bang come from? I'm not being sarcastic, I've never gotten an answer to this.
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
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http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles/publish/article_448.html[^] If this is what the christians are spending their time doing these days, call me a pagan. In fact, call me one anyway, since I still have a complete and working brain.
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The Harry Potter books and the Bible are both filled with supernatural fantasy. The kids reading the Potter books treat it as light-hearted escapism. The adult Christians also seek an escape in their world. The difference is that they can't differentiate between fantasy and reality.
yaname wrote: The adult Christians also seek an escape in their world. We seek an escape from this world. Don't get confused. yaname wrote: The difference is that they can't differentiate between fantasy and reality. Wow, you people amaze me sometimes with your total disregard for the opinions and beliefs of others. How would you prefer that I think?
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Christ is beyond reproach, Christianity and Christians are not. The organization of Christianity comes in many forms and it is made up of Christians. Christians are fallable human beings who frequently make mistakes and pass judgements when they have no right to do so. I was not being defensive of these people who don't like HP books. If you want to lump all Christians in the idiot namespace then that's your call, but when you say they threaten free speech and should shut up because they are ignorant, then that's where I think you're hypocritical.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Jason Henderson wrote: but when you say they threaten free speech and should shut up because they are ignorant, then that's where I think you're hypocritical. I don't recall telling anyone to shut up, quite the opposite actually, I'm just playing both sides of the fence is all to elicit exactly the sort of response you are providing (thank you). Who says Christ is beyond reproach? From the majority of people's point of view that's like saying Harry Potter is beyond reproach isn't it? Seriously though, of the things that I have faith in, and there are many, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone disparages them. The true test of a person's character is in their actions, not what they say in any case. Why is it that christians on the generally accepted sane side of things don't stand up for what they believe in rather than letting the nutters of the world who claim they are christians but evidently are not make a bad name for everyone else? (you can freely substitute for the word christian the word "muslim" or any word representing any other commonly held system of belief that feels it has the "answer" to life)
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J wrote: I still have a complete and working brain I used to say that too, before it was demonstrated time and time again to be untrue. You may wish to take steps to avoid a similar fate.
Shog9
drifting along with the tumbling tumbleweeds...
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Your 'proof' is based on a flawed assumption. Leap of faith #1: The universe cannot be an infinite loop of cause and effects. Why not? Prove the universe had a beginning. You can't. You can only assume/believe it had a beginning. Leap of faith #2: The universe at the beggining was infinte nothingness. Prove the universe had a beginning. Prove it was nothingness at the beginning. Sorry, 'infinite' nothingness. Maybe there's always been something. Then you go on to assume I'm an atheist (gee, thanks a lot) and you assume again that I'm going to try to prove that God doesn't exist, which I wouldn't do anyway - you can't prove he (or she) does exist, (and like you said) you sure as shit can't prove he (or she) doesn't exist. All I'm saying is don't get all high and mighty about your great logic, looking down with disdain on those who choose to believe because of tradition and spiritualism, because you're just as crazy as the rest of us who have faith in more than what we can see and touch. You believe the universe had a beginning? You're crazy, man. You're just crazy. - T
Great logic? *Looks around* I dunno who said that, but I don't feel my logic is great. I just have a rational logic, where I like to think things out. I'm just saying to believe 'just because' doesn't make sense to me. If someone doesn't agree with me, I don't look down on them. Such as reincarnation. I don't belive in that, but I understand how people came to that conclusion. And reincarnation makes more sense to me then heaven and hell. If you can tell me how people first came up with the idea of heaven and hell I'd be interested to know. If the universe had no beggining, then reincarnation is correct, in a sense. I'm just asking for a reason on why a belief was come to. If you can tell me how you came to a certain conclusion, rather then just 'faith' or 'because such and such said so', I'll respect you and discuss how my beliefs differ from yours. The underlying logic I have that you seem to have just nicley grazed over is this I do not have all the answers. I probably don't even have .001% of the answers. I could be wrong. I don't know. I just have things that make sense to me. You can contradict a belief, but you have yet to provide anything more then a 'You're just wrong' type of argument. I am looking for answers. I am open to new ideas, I want to learn I once had a freind who believed that after you die you go to a bar outside of Clevland Ohio. He showed me pictures taken from the bar of patrons, and showed me pictures from obituaries that matched patrons in the bar. The pictues of the patrons post-dated their obituaries. He also told me he had went there and talk to three people that had the same names and looked errily like people in obituaries. Crazy? Mabye, but he presents a valid argument. As wrong as I think he is, he knows what he believes and why. That's all I'm saying. Why can no one talk about Theology without resorting to personal attacks? I'm talking about a belief that I do not share, and attempting to get someone to provide a counter-argument that is valid. Not one that just says "You're wrong and messed up." That's not a valid argument. I don't look down on anyone. I am not better then anyone else. I am probably more messed up then most people. I'm just saying have a reason for your beliefs. More then 'because'. If you believe that God is a giant chicken and the universe is an egg, go for it. Just have some rationale behind it.
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toe
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Pride goeth before a fall.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Jason Henderson wrote: Pride goeth before a fall. "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jefferson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "I still say a church steeple with a lightening rod on top shows a lack of confidence." -Doug McLeod
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In order to say you don't need something, that something must have existed. Attn all Atheists: I want to know how everything got started. What's the atheists standpoint on how the universe got started. Where did the matter for the Big Bang come from? I'm not being sarcastic, I've never gotten an answer to this.
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
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I swear that everytime you post, Chris has some logic in there that automatically gives you a 1 vote. Its uncanny.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
:-D As a universal contrarian I wear my 1's as a badge of honor! "More capitalism, please..."
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yaname wrote: The adult Christians also seek an escape in their world. We seek an escape from this world. Don't get confused. yaname wrote: The difference is that they can't differentiate between fantasy and reality. Wow, you people amaze me sometimes with your total disregard for the opinions and beliefs of others. How would you prefer that I think?
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Jason Henderson wrote: We seek an escape from this world. Running away never solved anything.:) Jason Henderson wrote: How would you prefer that I think? Critically? I'd like to see some controlled experiments. How about group 1 prays for X and group 2 doesn't, then we see if there's a difference. Religion seems to be built on anecdote, slective memory, etc. A hundred soldiers start off across a mine field, all praying not to die. One makes it across and he claims that prayer saved him. Survivorship (really!) bias. Someone prays for something and it happens. Great, God granted my desire. Someone prays for something and it doesn't happen. That's ok, it wasn't God's will. It's like heads I win, tails I win.
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Great logic? *Looks around* I dunno who said that, but I don't feel my logic is great. I just have a rational logic, where I like to think things out. I'm just saying to believe 'just because' doesn't make sense to me. If someone doesn't agree with me, I don't look down on them. Such as reincarnation. I don't belive in that, but I understand how people came to that conclusion. And reincarnation makes more sense to me then heaven and hell. If you can tell me how people first came up with the idea of heaven and hell I'd be interested to know. If the universe had no beggining, then reincarnation is correct, in a sense. I'm just asking for a reason on why a belief was come to. If you can tell me how you came to a certain conclusion, rather then just 'faith' or 'because such and such said so', I'll respect you and discuss how my beliefs differ from yours. The underlying logic I have that you seem to have just nicley grazed over is this I do not have all the answers. I probably don't even have .001% of the answers. I could be wrong. I don't know. I just have things that make sense to me. You can contradict a belief, but you have yet to provide anything more then a 'You're just wrong' type of argument. I am looking for answers. I am open to new ideas, I want to learn I once had a freind who believed that after you die you go to a bar outside of Clevland Ohio. He showed me pictures taken from the bar of patrons, and showed me pictures from obituaries that matched patrons in the bar. The pictues of the patrons post-dated their obituaries. He also told me he had went there and talk to three people that had the same names and looked errily like people in obituaries. Crazy? Mabye, but he presents a valid argument. As wrong as I think he is, he knows what he believes and why. That's all I'm saying. Why can no one talk about Theology without resorting to personal attacks? I'm talking about a belief that I do not share, and attempting to get someone to provide a counter-argument that is valid. Not one that just says "You're wrong and messed up." That's not a valid argument. I don't look down on anyone. I am not better then anyone else. I am probably more messed up then most people. I'm just saying have a reason for your beliefs. More then 'because'. If you believe that God is a giant chicken and the universe is an egg, go for it. Just have some rationale behind it.
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toe
I'm just saying to believe 'just because' doesn't make sense to me. And yet, with this kind of discussion, this is all it ever comes down to in the end - believing just because. Otherwise, you don't have a belief - you have a theory. I didn't like that you were disdainful in your first post towards people who base their faith on 'an old book' or 'a wise man' - because everything, including your logical reasoning, has the same basic core - what you choose to have faith in. And you misread my post. I didn't say you were wrong. I said your _logic_ was _invalid_ because it starts with an unprovable assumption. If that assumption is right, I totally agree with your conclusion. But you can't prove point A, so point B does not follow. Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. - T
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Jason Henderson wrote: but when you say they threaten free speech and should shut up because they are ignorant, then that's where I think you're hypocritical. I don't recall telling anyone to shut up, quite the opposite actually, I'm just playing both sides of the fence is all to elicit exactly the sort of response you are providing (thank you). Who says Christ is beyond reproach? From the majority of people's point of view that's like saying Harry Potter is beyond reproach isn't it? Seriously though, of the things that I have faith in, and there are many, it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone disparages them. The true test of a person's character is in their actions, not what they say in any case. Why is it that christians on the generally accepted sane side of things don't stand up for what they believe in rather than letting the nutters of the world who claim they are christians but evidently are not make a bad name for everyone else? (you can freely substitute for the word christian the word "muslim" or any word representing any other commonly held system of belief that feels it has the "answer" to life)
J Cardinal wrote: I don't recall telling anyone to shut up, quite the opposite actually, I'm just playing both sides of the fence is all to elicit exactly the sort of response you are providing (thank you). I'm sure I will never convince you that my religion is the right way, but I'd at least like for you to understand that lumping all Christians in the idiot category is wrong. J Cardinal wrote: Why is it that christians on the generally accepted sane side of things don't stand up for what they believe in rather than letting the nutters of the world who claim they are christians but evidently are not make a bad name for everyone else? Controversy receives more press coverage. Its as simple as that.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote: Pride goeth before a fall. "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." -Thomas Jefferson -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "I still say a church steeple with a lightening rod on top shows a lack of confidence." -Doug McLeod
Are you questioning the existence of or are you stating the non-existence of a God? The act of questioning means you actively seek an answer. Being impartial to the many possibilities is essential. BTW, I have questioned, and doubted, but I have come to the conclusion that there is a God. Whether you call me an idiot or not will never change that.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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I'm just saying to believe 'just because' doesn't make sense to me. And yet, with this kind of discussion, this is all it ever comes down to in the end - believing just because. Otherwise, you don't have a belief - you have a theory. I didn't like that you were disdainful in your first post towards people who base their faith on 'an old book' or 'a wise man' - because everything, including your logical reasoning, has the same basic core - what you choose to have faith in. And you misread my post. I didn't say you were wrong. I said your _logic_ was _invalid_ because it starts with an unprovable assumption. If that assumption is right, I totally agree with your conclusion. But you can't prove point A, so point B does not follow. Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. - T
I would still like to hear your response to my car example, oh wise one. Absurdity? Let's compare: I believe: God is a thing that somehow helped shape the universe. This statement doesn't conform God to any one thing. God could be a pink elephant, or could just have been whatever caused the Big Bang. This also shows that I admit I don't know enough to follow up the statement with anything else about God. Christians (note, this is not what Christianity believes, this is what Christians contort it into): There's an invisible man, who lives in the sky. He constantly watches everything 24 hours a day. And he has these 10 little rules, that, if you don't follow them, you will be sent to a bad place of fire and tourture forever and ever, but, he loves you, and he always needs money. This all powerful onipitent being can't seem to keep a grasp on money. Simplified: I belive that a God, the qualities of which are unknown, existed at one point in time, not sure when, and helped create the universe in someway, not sure how. No contraints, no wild assumptions about God. And I admit that I could be wrong, I don't push my beliefs on others, I state them and have some backup for them, but, in the end, I'm just as lost as the next person. What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. No belief is better then the other, but without a logical reason, the person who believes is wrong. And before you come back with your "What about what you said a few lines up?", I was just stating how you think a person who makes no assumption, other then a God exists, has a more messed up view then someone that constantly makes assumptions. I have not been bashing the Christain belief, I'm just trying to get people to use their minds to think for themselves. Don't follow my beliefs, fine, as long as you think for yourself, that's all I'm saying. People die following religion blindly. Where religions are started and lead by people. People discuss beliefs. Where beliefs are started by a person, but not led. Beliefs can be modified and changed. Religions cannot. And I used to be one of those people who followed because of a book and because someone told me. But when I started thinking, and I questioned, since religions cannot be changed, I was told I was wrong. If you think and question a belief, it can be changed to fit new information. If it turns out that aliens created the Big Bang. I'm just like "Oh, well. Back to the drawing board." No wars, no killing. Just a change of mind.
..........Z
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Jason Henderson wrote: We seek an escape from this world. Running away never solved anything.:) Jason Henderson wrote: How would you prefer that I think? Critically? I'd like to see some controlled experiments. How about group 1 prays for X and group 2 doesn't, then we see if there's a difference. Religion seems to be built on anecdote, slective memory, etc. A hundred soldiers start off across a mine field, all praying not to die. One makes it across and he claims that prayer saved him. Survivorship (really!) bias. Someone prays for something and it happens. Great, God granted my desire. Someone prays for something and it doesn't happen. That's ok, it wasn't God's will. It's like heads I win, tails I win.
yaname wrote: Running away never solved anything. :rolleyes: You like it here? yaname wrote: Critically? Because I have faith, doesn't mean I haven't thought critically about my belief. yaname wrote: That's ok, it wasn't God's will. It's like heads I win, tails I win. Prayer is not something you can experiment with, IMO. We can't order God to do something, his will takes precedence. Who are we to question the creator of the universe? Read the last half of the book of Job and you may come closer to understanding.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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I would still like to hear your response to my car example, oh wise one. Absurdity? Let's compare: I believe: God is a thing that somehow helped shape the universe. This statement doesn't conform God to any one thing. God could be a pink elephant, or could just have been whatever caused the Big Bang. This also shows that I admit I don't know enough to follow up the statement with anything else about God. Christians (note, this is not what Christianity believes, this is what Christians contort it into): There's an invisible man, who lives in the sky. He constantly watches everything 24 hours a day. And he has these 10 little rules, that, if you don't follow them, you will be sent to a bad place of fire and tourture forever and ever, but, he loves you, and he always needs money. This all powerful onipitent being can't seem to keep a grasp on money. Simplified: I belive that a God, the qualities of which are unknown, existed at one point in time, not sure when, and helped create the universe in someway, not sure how. No contraints, no wild assumptions about God. And I admit that I could be wrong, I don't push my beliefs on others, I state them and have some backup for them, but, in the end, I'm just as lost as the next person. What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. No belief is better then the other, but without a logical reason, the person who believes is wrong. And before you come back with your "What about what you said a few lines up?", I was just stating how you think a person who makes no assumption, other then a God exists, has a more messed up view then someone that constantly makes assumptions. I have not been bashing the Christain belief, I'm just trying to get people to use their minds to think for themselves. Don't follow my beliefs, fine, as long as you think for yourself, that's all I'm saying. People die following religion blindly. Where religions are started and lead by people. People discuss beliefs. Where beliefs are started by a person, but not led. Beliefs can be modified and changed. Religions cannot. And I used to be one of those people who followed because of a book and because someone told me. But when I started thinking, and I questioned, since religions cannot be changed, I was told I was wrong. If you think and question a belief, it can be changed to fit new information. If it turns out that aliens created the Big Bang. I'm just like "Oh, well. Back to the drawing board." No wars, no killing. Just a change of mind.
..........Z
First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
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I would still like to hear your response to my car example, oh wise one. Absurdity? Let's compare: I believe: God is a thing that somehow helped shape the universe. This statement doesn't conform God to any one thing. God could be a pink elephant, or could just have been whatever caused the Big Bang. This also shows that I admit I don't know enough to follow up the statement with anything else about God. Christians (note, this is not what Christianity believes, this is what Christians contort it into): There's an invisible man, who lives in the sky. He constantly watches everything 24 hours a day. And he has these 10 little rules, that, if you don't follow them, you will be sent to a bad place of fire and tourture forever and ever, but, he loves you, and he always needs money. This all powerful onipitent being can't seem to keep a grasp on money. Simplified: I belive that a God, the qualities of which are unknown, existed at one point in time, not sure when, and helped create the universe in someway, not sure how. No contraints, no wild assumptions about God. And I admit that I could be wrong, I don't push my beliefs on others, I state them and have some backup for them, but, in the end, I'm just as lost as the next person. What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. No belief is better then the other, but without a logical reason, the person who believes is wrong. And before you come back with your "What about what you said a few lines up?", I was just stating how you think a person who makes no assumption, other then a God exists, has a more messed up view then someone that constantly makes assumptions. I have not been bashing the Christain belief, I'm just trying to get people to use their minds to think for themselves. Don't follow my beliefs, fine, as long as you think for yourself, that's all I'm saying. People die following religion blindly. Where religions are started and lead by people. People discuss beliefs. Where beliefs are started by a person, but not led. Beliefs can be modified and changed. Religions cannot. And I used to be one of those people who followed because of a book and because someone told me. But when I started thinking, and I questioned, since religions cannot be changed, I was told I was wrong. If you think and question a belief, it can be changed to fit new information. If it turns out that aliens created the Big Bang. I'm just like "Oh, well. Back to the drawing board." No wars, no killing. Just a change of mind.
..........Z
First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
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First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
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First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
I don't consider this a discussion: I belive this... "You can't prove it." I belive what I do because.... "Still can't prove it." What are your thoughts? "You can't prove anything." That's it? "Can't prove it." How can someone who likes George Carlin, who thinks for himself, be so non-thinking? I still want to see your response to my car disscussion. (I believe this is the 2nd time I've asked that.) Wait,I think I forsee your response. "You can't prove the car exists."
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+