Advice Column??? Anyone???
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
Get the degree, it certainly can't hurt. Disclaimer: Some of the biggest idiots I've ever met are college graduates. No, college didn't make them idiots but it certainly didn't cure them or cull them out.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching. -
So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
If your bro wants to swim with the sharks and not get eaten, then he needs to be recognized by the other sharks. They got there the hard way through hard work and dilligence, and if he wants to accepted as such, he should be willing to to the same. If he is so bright and gifted in the programming arts, he should be able to complete his degree in half the time, thus showing he has the ability to be not just a shark, but a lead shark.:cool: The World as we think we know it Has a lot more to it than meets the eye. A Mad Scientist who has seen it for himself....
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
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Well, after reading all that, I guess I don't even have to give my response. :rolleyes: - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
Assuming you go to a decent program, (not community college or such, in which you will end up learning courses on software programs and languages that you will eventually learned anyway in the workforce), you can actually learn quite a lot from the theoretical material. The college program will probably not even have any courses on software products or professional software languages like C++ or Java. I was doing assembly programming at the age of 12, and wrote sophisticated programs before going off to college. I knew quite a bit before then, but even more so from college. At college, the studies were quite theoretical, but have proven their merits over the long run. The material from college is not often easy to pick elsewhere, and you will perpetually feel inferior to your other college brethen. Either that, the product is not very sophisticated, but perhaps you won't be earning the big bugs. If you end up at a very good company (which is hard, because you will be screen out because of missing college education), you may encounter specifications that may be semi-comprehensible to you without a formal background. You will need to communicate with others who have a sound theoretical background and a more sophisticated technical vocabulary. A good CS education provides you with knowledge of data structures (trees, compressions, searching and sorting, O(n) performance analysis), computation (state machines, CFG). You'll learn the fundamental bases of AI, compilers, OS's and databases. Say you want to write games for example, it's not enough to do it straight after school anymore. You'll need a heavy dose of mathematics such as advanced linear algebra, some college-level physics, and, of course, computer science classes like Computer Graphics, where you encounter the advanced graphics algorithms. In my CG, I wrote a 3-D raytracer and a 3-D polygonal renderer. It has a big impact on your life, on the jobs that you will be considered for, on the quality of spouse who would even consider you. You most likely won't be doing the glamorous work, and you most likely will have to setting for quality assurance. The marketplace is full of people who are trying to get back a degree to move ahead. I know that of people my age group, 30-33, 60% have a college degree; it'll be higher when your 30. This could be your biggest mistake in your life, if you decide to skip it. College is also an extremely enjoyable experience. Thanks, Wes
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Well, after reading all that, I guess I don't even have to give my response. :rolleyes: - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
Nitron wrote: Well, after reading all that, I guess I don't even have to give my response. Same here.... ;P -Nick Parker
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
Your brother needs a reality check. ;) He may be a good programmer. He may even be the best programmer, that he knows. However, all he's done so far are little kiddie high-school programs. Has he had to work on a team? A big team? A team spread over a couple of sites? Does he act maturely with team members? (ie, don't have a 'tude about others touching your code) Is he just a hot shot who thinks he's the shiznit? Has he had to come in cold into a new set of systems and components and learn them all with little help? How's the quality of his code? Any comments? (I wouldn't bet on it) Is his code maintainable? Can he maintain code written by others? Can he write documentation for his own systems? (again, not likely) Any interviewer is going to have all those questions running through his head. It all adds up to: yeah, he might get a job right out of high school, but it sure as hell won't be programming. It'll be an entry-level QA job, maybe QA engineer if he's lucky and he shows sample code that's really great. Go to college, for three big reasons: 1. Going from the pretty laid-back high school environment right into a real job would be a big adjustment. No more ditching. ;) Is he mature enough to handle a real-world job? Are you sure? 2. He's young. College can be a fucking blast. Why lose the chance at 4 years of being away from home, staying up late, illegal drinking, hot college chicks, casual sex, and oh yeah learning. ;) Sure, he could always go back later, but partying at age 18 is a hell of a lot easier than partying at age 28. 3. Completing college shows he's mature enough to stick with something and see it thru to completion. Along the way he'll get to learn more about logical problem-solving, working in groups, and it'll ease him into how the Real World operates. He can even look for internships at companies in the industry, so he'll end up with a degree and work experience. --Mike-- "So where does that leave us? Well, it leaves us right back where we started, only more confused than before." -- Matt Gullett Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
You and this guy and everyone you all know may swear up and down, backwards and forwards, sideways, and upside-down that he can program, but you have to remember there are people in the world who are not programmers, computer-knowledgeable, or otherwise. And so the only thing that is going to make them sit up and take notice in the work-force is his degree credentials. Otherwise, they really do not have any basis from which to judge his level of ability unless some respected, accredited, four-year institution has said, "We think so, too." Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart Department of Physics and Astronomy University of California, Irvine
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
While you can make it without a degree (and I have), the degree will make his life a lot easier. Unfortunately, from what I've seen of CS education (my college qualifications and work experience got me into a postgraduate degree here in the UK - it was pathetic! We were learning about arrays X| And at a huge price too. I left.) he will probably be bored with the course work. But he'll also meet others like himself, and probably develop some pretty cool projects with them in his free time. Also, if he can afford university (which I couldn't) it will be a nice time for him before he has to enter the working world, which he won't leave until he's 65. Why not enjoy his youth for a little longer? :)
To honor you, and your sick games, this smiley ;p will now represent licking chocolate off candy - David Chamberlain
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
Well, take a look at MY experience. I spent 2 years in a college, then left. No degree, no diploma. Just my resume and 19 years experience. Now it is my fourth job where I'm working as a senior programmer. I had no problems travelling overseas, nor getting job at home. Now listen what I say : tell him to go to the college. First of all - all that stuff with 'work in any language and do anything' is worthless. OK, it's good to know many languages, but the most important thing is experience. Just ask him what design patterns does he know. I can always ask a question that he'll not ne able to answer. Moreover, the college gives one some extra knowledge that might be useful some day - calculus, algebra, etc. There is a saying 'when in Rome, do as Romans do'. That means - in a society, follow some rules. A programmer is supposed to have higher education. He'll have no need to prove himself worthy. At my previous job, the HR manager registering my info was astonished and could not beleive that I have no diploma. I was the only one employee of my rank without college education. She told me that the company usually hires only people with university education or from selected technical colleges. What could I do ? I had my contract signed already... Living in IT world without college education is like swimming upstream.
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
I skipped university to go straight to work. Four years later I am studying for a BSC and working at the same time (both full time!). Its much harder this way, but I cannot say that I didn't enjoy my time out of school!!! The bottom line is that sooner or later he will need a BSC. Its totally up to him to decide when to get it. Drinking In The Sun Forgot Password?
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Assuming you go to a decent program, (not community college or such, in which you will end up learning courses on software programs and languages that you will eventually learned anyway in the workforce), you can actually learn quite a lot from the theoretical material. The college program will probably not even have any courses on software products or professional software languages like C++ or Java. I was doing assembly programming at the age of 12, and wrote sophisticated programs before going off to college. I knew quite a bit before then, but even more so from college. At college, the studies were quite theoretical, but have proven their merits over the long run. The material from college is not often easy to pick elsewhere, and you will perpetually feel inferior to your other college brethen. Either that, the product is not very sophisticated, but perhaps you won't be earning the big bugs. If you end up at a very good company (which is hard, because you will be screen out because of missing college education), you may encounter specifications that may be semi-comprehensible to you without a formal background. You will need to communicate with others who have a sound theoretical background and a more sophisticated technical vocabulary. A good CS education provides you with knowledge of data structures (trees, compressions, searching and sorting, O(n) performance analysis), computation (state machines, CFG). You'll learn the fundamental bases of AI, compilers, OS's and databases. Say you want to write games for example, it's not enough to do it straight after school anymore. You'll need a heavy dose of mathematics such as advanced linear algebra, some college-level physics, and, of course, computer science classes like Computer Graphics, where you encounter the advanced graphics algorithms. In my CG, I wrote a 3-D raytracer and a 3-D polygonal renderer. It has a big impact on your life, on the jobs that you will be considered for, on the quality of spouse who would even consider you. You most likely won't be doing the glamorous work, and you most likely will have to setting for quality assurance. The marketplace is full of people who are trying to get back a degree to move ahead. I know that of people my age group, 30-33, 60% have a college degree; it'll be higher when your 30. This could be your biggest mistake in your life, if you decide to skip it. College is also an extremely enjoyable experience. Thanks, Wes
Ah mathematics - I didn't think of that. If his brother want's to go into a field where mathematics or physics or whatever are an important part of the job then yeah I would definately say get some certificates on your wall. Subjects like maths in particular I found almost impossible to grasp the more complex elements without one-to-one tuition provided through my college's support services. I got through two years thanks to that, and whilst I didn't get a particularly good grade at the end of it I did pick up enough to work out angles in ninety degree triangles... :laugh:
David Wulff
"It is a helpless feeling to be unable to make something so terribly wrong... right."
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
I would say, go to College/University, but don't do computer science. Do something else, e.g. a science degree of some kind e.g. Chem, Physics, BioChem or even Maths, or go for a mix e.g. Physics with Math. I've even got a few mates who did Geography that have landed themselves good software development jobs. Reason is, you don't need do computer Science to get a programming job, and you differenciate yourself if you have something else under your belt. Having a mathematical degree can come in useful at a later date for well paying jobs say in finance where they need a developer with strong math. University is good as a learning experience and a chance for some people to mature. Its good in that those that get though it will need to demonstrate some kind of self control. I saw loads of people go off the rails. And at the end of the day, it shows you what kind of real competition is out there. Its all very well been the top of a school year, another to be the top at a good university. Code Frog wrote: I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets Is this really true? Ever had to deal with the problems that occur with say a 5 TB database?
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
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I'm curious to hear from someone else in the UK along this line, because I have always had responses (read: offers to interview and usually gigs) from applications that specifically emphasised the fact, at the time, that I had no formal qualifications (I've always gotten any confusion out of the way first). The only one that was rejected was by the police force and I was told that was because I don't hold a full driving license. If you can communicate in writing and voice that you know the technicals, the processes, the interpersonals and in my eyes the morals needed to get the job done then that leaves a better Good Impression™ than something that suggests you might know them. I distinctly remember one time where a guy was interviewing me for a gig and when I referred to a reference in my resumé he told me "oh, I didn't bother reading that" - my letter did it all. (That contract lasted for eighteen months if you're interested :)). I am also curious as to why people are emphasising "good verbal and written skills" as a reason to take the degree - don't they teach you these things growing up anymore? Agreed such things change with your maturity around that age, but that will happen regardless. :wtf: Is the market really that bad over there? That sucks!
David Wulff
"It is a helpless feeling to be unable to make something so terribly wrong... right."
David Wulff wrote: I'm curious to hear from someone else in the UK along this line, because I have always had responses (read: offers to interview and usually gigs) from applications that specifically emphasised the fact, at the time, that I had no formal qualifications Similar experience here (Manchester). Last time I went a job huntin' I got driven mad by recruitment consultants offering me generaly appropriate jobs. My education is pretty scatty, as I was turfed out of the family home at 16. I had to redo my A-Levels at 19, while on the dole. This is still against the law I think, as acedemic courses are not on the list of approved job seeking activities. I also managed to swing internships at Zeneca and HP Labs before starting a BSc at UMIST. Nepostism is cool. Dropped out of my degree at the start of the 3rd year, into a full time job working on medical image analysis systems. Done a variety of stuff since then; Heath Robison embedded systems, security scanners and telephony as well as standard information processing stuff. I'm lucky, because I have a wide range of experience starting before my degree. All the companies I have worked for full time have been SME's(<50 employees, generaly 20-30) though. I might still have problems working for a blue chip or in the financial sector, even though I have 7 years of full time work behind me. I reckon he should do the degree, if he isn't going to starve to death or fall into the 'This course sucks, I'm not learning f**king accountancy because they cut the 'difficult' compiler design course'. That kind of thinking is a common fault among geeklings :-O Ryan.
"Everybody has a right to be stupid, but some people abuse the privilege." Uncle Joe Stalin
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So your kid brother is graduating from high school, very smart and bright. Programs in C++ like he learned it before English. Always has known the heap and the stack in O.S. terms just now realized mom was talking about his bedroom and the plates underneath his bed. (Nerd humor, I know not funny.) He wants to know this and I am stumped. Here is the question and feel free to answer honestly and candidly. Well what the heck you can lie too :) --------------------------- Q. I am very good with computers and programming I can work in any language and do anything. Databases hold no secrets. (All true I might add.) Do I need to go to college for my B.S. or even my masters in computer science or should I just enter the work-force? How much is a college degree really worth these days? --------------------------- Okay guys, free for all. What do you think and try to give meaningful answers based largely on your own experiences or 2nd person at most. Should he go to school for his degree in C.S? Thanks, Rex Winn
than heaps and stacks. Does he have a good grasp of calculus, statistical analysis methods and algorithms? Can he write a functional specification, design document, or use case? Has he studied human factors and accessibility? Does he have enough aesthetic sense to put together a reasonably attractive user interface? Can he persuade a room full of developers that his approach is sound and that they should adopt it? I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. Coding is a relatively small, albeit important, part of a software engineer's job. Lots of people can code. Someone who can code but can't write a decent technical document or lead a team won't get very far. College won't necessarily teach someone these skills, but it certinaly affords them the opportunity to. Your brother might consider majoring in something other than CS since he feels he is already strong in this area. How about applied mathematics or chemical engineering? Some of the best architects I've worked with have had backgrounds in music. My degree is in Foreign Affairs (the Foreign Policy aspect of Political Science). I started coding in Basic when I was 12, moved onto Assembly when I was 14. I found that my University's CS department didn't have much to offer me. So, I studied something else. I learned critical thinking and how to form a well reasoned argument. I learned how to write - a skill which is sorely lacking in our field. Ten years after graduation, I was the Chief Technology Officer for an Inc. 500 company. Now I run my own business and, believe me, that requires a lot more than programming skills.
