Thank you, Microsoft
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David O'Neil wrote:
Is there something I'm just unaware of, not having been involved in DB development work other than experiences like the above?
Perception. Many think of Access as a toy, so if they're going to spend any serious amount of time putting together some system that needs a DB, they're not going to want to mention in their resume they did it with Access. My opinion anyway. [Edit] Oh...and when I say "my opinion"...I mean, that's my opinion of how it's perceived. Not necessarily my opinion of Access's usefulness.
I'm using MS Access since > 20 years for my private DBs and it does a good job for me, but: What may happen if you use it in a bigger company and one of the other limitations of MS Access become(s) a bottleneck? Limits: - Total size for an Access database (.accdb or .mdb), including all database objects and data: 2 gigabytes, minus the space needed for system objects. - Total number of objects in a database: 32,768 - Query Recordset size: 1 gigabyte and many more as shown here: Access specifications[^]
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This is not sarcasm, for once. I am doing a bunch of contacts. The ability to parse web page source text in an Access memo box, add the appropriate items to the DB, and keep track of the contact information in the DB (and, even though I haven't gotten there yet, being able in Outlook to open up Access and add the send and reply dates back into the DB from there (should be doable, but haven't tackled it yet)), is a MASSIVE help. Everyone seems to shit on Office and VBA, but when used correctly it is TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL! A small business could be ran with it pretty easily if you coded it up nicely, and I haven't came across anything in VBA that forces you not to code it nicely. People complain about the cost of Office, but with Access, the power is amazing when you are aware of it. I still want to complain about the cost, but there is no way in hell I could single-handedly code a suite like that in less than twenty years; probably many many more! It is cheap for what you can get out of it. So thank you! (But don't take this as an excuse to raise prices - you've distributed the cost among enough of us - quit being greedy; profits don't have to increase each year. Just making a profit when so many people are struggling to live should be good enough.) But quit worrying about stupid icons so much, and eliminate that totally utterly stupid idea of forcing an MS account just to install Windows. Your corporate head honchos are bending over backwards to make a dystopian future where everyone is looked at as a number with a revenue stream associated with it. Quit it! Focus on improving the user experience! Like some of the flakiness of Word when pictures are moved around! And combining the Control Panel and the new Settings program! Based on how well you did with VBA and Office overall, and my praise thereof, YOU CAN DO IT!!! Best wishes for a continuously improving future!!! And Thanks Again!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
I too love Access, for the right sort of jobs. However the problem that I often see is when a non-programmer builds a simple solution with Access. At first, no big deal. But then over time, new functionality gets patched on, Now fast forward a few years, and you have this behemoth of an app, built with loads of spaghetti-style code, and no one really knows how it works anymore. Now they turn to the professional developers to fix things in it or add yet more functionality, and we are left with this Ball of Mud to sort out. One company I worked with had one such Access DB, with multiple forms and reports, that had become crucial to their business over the course of almost 20 years of patching. They even had one-off versions with for one or two people with different formulas for estimations of pricing. And full of these little bugs that they wanted fixed. They thought upgrading to a new version of Access (they were still on Office 2003) would fix their problems.... Long story short - like any tool, you need to use it properly. Programming in Access is like programming in any other language, and needs some forethought for anything beyond trivial solutions.
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Access is a tool. Like any other tool, it has its purpose. Use it for the wrong purpose and one is destined for failure. The reason most poo-poo on Access is because for most, it is not the correct tool for the job, SQL Server, Oracle, etc. are the correct tools for the job. and yes, if you have a table that needs more than 255 columns, then you have much bigger problems on your hands than Access.
I used Access since it first came out. I still do at times. I switched to SQK Server after it came out, mostly because of the 32767 limit.
Access is a tool. Like any other tool, it has its purpose. Use it for the wrong purpose and one is destined for failure.
I agree with you one hundred percent! the same can be said for, and is equally true about VB in ALL of it's forms from VB6 to the latest version of VB.net. The same can be said for other languages, for that matter. I'm looking at you, Griff. Just because you like one language better than others, does not give you the right to rundown the others.
ED
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I too love Access, for the right sort of jobs. However the problem that I often see is when a non-programmer builds a simple solution with Access. At first, no big deal. But then over time, new functionality gets patched on, Now fast forward a few years, and you have this behemoth of an app, built with loads of spaghetti-style code, and no one really knows how it works anymore. Now they turn to the professional developers to fix things in it or add yet more functionality, and we are left with this Ball of Mud to sort out. One company I worked with had one such Access DB, with multiple forms and reports, that had become crucial to their business over the course of almost 20 years of patching. They even had one-off versions with for one or two people with different formulas for estimations of pricing. And full of these little bugs that they wanted fixed. They thought upgrading to a new version of Access (they were still on Office 2003) would fix their problems.... Long story short - like any tool, you need to use it properly. Programming in Access is like programming in any other language, and needs some forethought for anything beyond trivial solutions.
Andreas Mertens wrote:
They even had one-off versions with for one or two people with different formulas for estimations of pricing
Ungh!!! [That's Rough, Buddy](https://youtu.be/voP9um7yi1Y?t=81)!!!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
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Andreas Mertens wrote:
They even had one-off versions with for one or two people with different formulas for estimations of pricing
Ungh!!! [That's Rough, Buddy](https://youtu.be/voP9um7yi1Y?t=81)!!!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
It was. It would be nice if you could easily put all of the code and forms into git or some other version control system
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David O'Neil wrote:
Is there something I'm just unaware of, not having been involved in DB development work other than experiences like the above?
Perception. Many think of Access as a toy, so if they're going to spend any serious amount of time putting together some system that needs a DB, they're not going to want to mention in their resume they did it with Access. My opinion anyway. [Edit] Oh...and when I say "my opinion"...I mean, that's my opinion of how it's perceived. Not necessarily my opinion of Access's usefulness.
I've been poking around YouTube, trying to find whether SQL has Access's query design interface/tool/whatever. Designing queries in Access seems MUCH easier than SQL's offering, but maybe I'm not using the right search terms.
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
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It was. It would be nice if you could easily put all of the code and forms into git or some other version control system
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I too love Access, for the right sort of jobs. However the problem that I often see is when a non-programmer builds a simple solution with Access. At first, no big deal. But then over time, new functionality gets patched on, Now fast forward a few years, and you have this behemoth of an app, built with loads of spaghetti-style code, and no one really knows how it works anymore. Now they turn to the professional developers to fix things in it or add yet more functionality, and we are left with this Ball of Mud to sort out. One company I worked with had one such Access DB, with multiple forms and reports, that had become crucial to their business over the course of almost 20 years of patching. They even had one-off versions with for one or two people with different formulas for estimations of pricing. And full of these little bugs that they wanted fixed. They thought upgrading to a new version of Access (they were still on Office 2003) would fix their problems.... Long story short - like any tool, you need to use it properly. Programming in Access is like programming in any other language, and needs some forethought for anything beyond trivial solutions.
I once wrote an entire management system for a school department in Access in one week while I had a severe flu that only gave me about four hours of coherence per day. I wasted at least one whole day on a series of cascading drop downs for the most complicated screen. (I will blame that delay on delirium) If you like Access, check out OutSystems. I think of it as a cloud hosted, multiuser super-Access. Similar speed of development for simple CRUD apps.
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Or have some more tables that help control when to display the estimates. Copying the MDB to change a formula is probably not the best way.
Or better yet, a query?
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
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This is not sarcasm, for once. I am doing a bunch of contacts. The ability to parse web page source text in an Access memo box, add the appropriate items to the DB, and keep track of the contact information in the DB (and, even though I haven't gotten there yet, being able in Outlook to open up Access and add the send and reply dates back into the DB from there (should be doable, but haven't tackled it yet)), is a MASSIVE help. Everyone seems to shit on Office and VBA, but when used correctly it is TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL! A small business could be ran with it pretty easily if you coded it up nicely, and I haven't came across anything in VBA that forces you not to code it nicely. People complain about the cost of Office, but with Access, the power is amazing when you are aware of it. I still want to complain about the cost, but there is no way in hell I could single-handedly code a suite like that in less than twenty years; probably many many more! It is cheap for what you can get out of it. So thank you! (But don't take this as an excuse to raise prices - you've distributed the cost among enough of us - quit being greedy; profits don't have to increase each year. Just making a profit when so many people are struggling to live should be good enough.) But quit worrying about stupid icons so much, and eliminate that totally utterly stupid idea of forcing an MS account just to install Windows. Your corporate head honchos are bending over backwards to make a dystopian future where everyone is looked at as a number with a revenue stream associated with it. Quit it! Focus on improving the user experience! Like some of the flakiness of Word when pictures are moved around! And combining the Control Panel and the new Settings program! Based on how well you did with VBA and Office overall, and my praise thereof, YOU CAN DO IT!!! Best wishes for a continuously improving future!!! And Thanks Again!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
Further yay! Got Outlook talking to Access, so can now log sent (and in the future, received) emails as they are sent and received! Can even do basic templates for email lists, and fill in the addresses and salutations from Access as well, so it goes both ways! The only issue is that Outlook locks up while sending emails, because it doesn't have a true method to trigger timer events so the main thread pretty much locks up.
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
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Access is the hidden gem in Office. It's a fully relational database, including all the data definitions, macros, forms, queries, VBA code, etc. being stored in tables. It has a powerful but relatively simple to use UI, and is perfect for workgroups on a high speed LAN.
obermd wrote:
Access is the hidden gem in Office
And was also the most misused tool. Entire business logic applications written in VBA / VB6 with a self contained .mdb prone to get farked every week.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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ElectronProgrammer wrote:
At that time Access allowed to build GUIs, do not know if it still does.
2010 does, and I bet the newer versions also do. Haven't played with them.
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
Even 2021 does support the GUIs! I have Access 'apps' that I started in the 1990s and they have had minor tweaks (e.g. going from Access 2 to Access 97 was tricky as they changed the default Recordset class, some error nos altered) but apart from that, they work fine. The default 'style' for forms change between releases, but old forms still work without modification. I have used Access in multi-user mode; admittedly, the multi-users were web users and the web app was the only 'real' user using the database (apart from a maintenance user). That ran from 1997 to well into the 2000s.
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This is not sarcasm, for once. I am doing a bunch of contacts. The ability to parse web page source text in an Access memo box, add the appropriate items to the DB, and keep track of the contact information in the DB (and, even though I haven't gotten there yet, being able in Outlook to open up Access and add the send and reply dates back into the DB from there (should be doable, but haven't tackled it yet)), is a MASSIVE help. Everyone seems to shit on Office and VBA, but when used correctly it is TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL! A small business could be ran with it pretty easily if you coded it up nicely, and I haven't came across anything in VBA that forces you not to code it nicely. People complain about the cost of Office, but with Access, the power is amazing when you are aware of it. I still want to complain about the cost, but there is no way in hell I could single-handedly code a suite like that in less than twenty years; probably many many more! It is cheap for what you can get out of it. So thank you! (But don't take this as an excuse to raise prices - you've distributed the cost among enough of us - quit being greedy; profits don't have to increase each year. Just making a profit when so many people are struggling to live should be good enough.) But quit worrying about stupid icons so much, and eliminate that totally utterly stupid idea of forcing an MS account just to install Windows. Your corporate head honchos are bending over backwards to make a dystopian future where everyone is looked at as a number with a revenue stream associated with it. Quit it! Focus on improving the user experience! Like some of the flakiness of Word when pictures are moved around! And combining the Control Panel and the new Settings program! Based on how well you did with VBA and Office overall, and my praise thereof, YOU CAN DO IT!!! Best wishes for a continuously improving future!!! And Thanks Again!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
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This is not sarcasm, for once. I am doing a bunch of contacts. The ability to parse web page source text in an Access memo box, add the appropriate items to the DB, and keep track of the contact information in the DB (and, even though I haven't gotten there yet, being able in Outlook to open up Access and add the send and reply dates back into the DB from there (should be doable, but haven't tackled it yet)), is a MASSIVE help. Everyone seems to shit on Office and VBA, but when used correctly it is TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL! A small business could be ran with it pretty easily if you coded it up nicely, and I haven't came across anything in VBA that forces you not to code it nicely. People complain about the cost of Office, but with Access, the power is amazing when you are aware of it. I still want to complain about the cost, but there is no way in hell I could single-handedly code a suite like that in less than twenty years; probably many many more! It is cheap for what you can get out of it. So thank you! (But don't take this as an excuse to raise prices - you've distributed the cost among enough of us - quit being greedy; profits don't have to increase each year. Just making a profit when so many people are struggling to live should be good enough.) But quit worrying about stupid icons so much, and eliminate that totally utterly stupid idea of forcing an MS account just to install Windows. Your corporate head honchos are bending over backwards to make a dystopian future where everyone is looked at as a number with a revenue stream associated with it. Quit it! Focus on improving the user experience! Like some of the flakiness of Word when pictures are moved around! And combining the Control Panel and the new Settings program! Based on how well you did with VBA and Office overall, and my praise thereof, YOU CAN DO IT!!! Best wishes for a continuously improving future!!! And Thanks Again!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
Sorry, I lost interest when you said "This is not sarcasm ..."
Nothing succeeds like a budgie without teeth.
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I'm using MS Access since > 20 years for my private DBs and it does a good job for me, but: What may happen if you use it in a bigger company and one of the other limitations of MS Access become(s) a bottleneck? Limits: - Total size for an Access database (.accdb or .mdb), including all database objects and data: 2 gigabytes, minus the space needed for system objects. - Total number of objects in a database: 32,768 - Query Recordset size: 1 gigabyte and many more as shown here: Access specifications[^]
This smells like "don't allow access to grow, it will eat into SqlServer" restrictions. So, max size is limited to a 32 bit value and # of objects is a word. Hmmm. I don't do databases any more but what is an object in these terms? :)
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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I'm using MS Access since > 20 years for my private DBs and it does a good job for me, but: What may happen if you use it in a bigger company and one of the other limitations of MS Access become(s) a bottleneck? Limits: - Total size for an Access database (.accdb or .mdb), including all database objects and data: 2 gigabytes, minus the space needed for system objects. - Total number of objects in a database: 32,768 - Query Recordset size: 1 gigabyte and many more as shown here: Access specifications[^]
Jo_vb.net wrote:
What may happen if you use it in a bigger company and one of the other limitations of MS Access become(s) a bottleneck?
In situations like this, the wrong tool is being used, like using a 5 oz finishing hammer for framing or roofing. MS Access is perfect for small applications, especially in small companies that do not need the infrastructure necessary to run SQL Server or Oracle. Situation like that are the opposite, using a 32 oz roofing hammer to drive finishing nails. Use the right tool for the right job.
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Even 2021 does support the GUIs! I have Access 'apps' that I started in the 1990s and they have had minor tweaks (e.g. going from Access 2 to Access 97 was tricky as they changed the default Recordset class, some error nos altered) but apart from that, they work fine. The default 'style' for forms change between releases, but old forms still work without modification. I have used Access in multi-user mode; admittedly, the multi-users were web users and the web app was the only 'real' user using the database (apart from a maintenance user). That ran from 1997 to well into the 2000s.
jsc42 wrote:
Even 2021 does support the GUIs! I have Access 'apps' that I started in the 1990s and they have had minor tweaks
Same here -- I have several databases started in Access V2 which have migrated through every version up to the current one. VBA has been expanded but most of the original code works. Beyond Access, my MS Word Normal.dotx contains macros that have run, unchanged, since 1995. This reinforces how bad the constant language churn is for the front line languages.
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I used Access since it first came out. I still do at times. I switched to SQK Server after it came out, mostly because of the 32767 limit.
Access is a tool. Like any other tool, it has its purpose. Use it for the wrong purpose and one is destined for failure.
I agree with you one hundred percent! the same can be said for, and is equally true about VB in ALL of it's forms from VB6 to the latest version of VB.net. The same can be said for other languages, for that matter. I'm looking at you, Griff. Just because you like one language better than others, does not give you the right to rundown the others.
ED
Slow Eddie wrote:
I agree with you one hundred percent! the same can be said for, and is equally true about VB in ALL of it's forms from VB6 to the latest version of VB.net
Visual Basic was a revolutionary language that completely changed the programming landscape. I recall trying to develop GUIs prior to VB ... sheesh! Look at the "popular languages" lists -- regardless of the ranking criteria, Classic VB is often still in the top 20. Personally, this surprises me, but it's oddly true. Folks complain about the bad applications written in VB ... I've had to deal with far more crap code in C, C++, C#, and Java. As a mentor said, it's a poor craftsman who blames the tools for his lack of skill.
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From my experience, I can see absolutely no reason to have that many columns. I got to look at BPCS, that the company used, and it was an absolute nightmare of a design, that I replicated some of with well-designed relational tables. I doubt I ever used many more than ten columns per a table, because there was absolutely no reason to do so if you normalize the data. But maybe I'm missing something.
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
In a properly designed 3rd normal form database, you are correct. You'd never get to 255 columns. I can only think of one situation where it would be useful to have >255 columns and that is denormalizing a dataset for ease of reporting. For example a clinical-trials reporting database.
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This is not sarcasm, for once. I am doing a bunch of contacts. The ability to parse web page source text in an Access memo box, add the appropriate items to the DB, and keep track of the contact information in the DB (and, even though I haven't gotten there yet, being able in Outlook to open up Access and add the send and reply dates back into the DB from there (should be doable, but haven't tackled it yet)), is a MASSIVE help. Everyone seems to shit on Office and VBA, but when used correctly it is TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL! A small business could be ran with it pretty easily if you coded it up nicely, and I haven't came across anything in VBA that forces you not to code it nicely. People complain about the cost of Office, but with Access, the power is amazing when you are aware of it. I still want to complain about the cost, but there is no way in hell I could single-handedly code a suite like that in less than twenty years; probably many many more! It is cheap for what you can get out of it. So thank you! (But don't take this as an excuse to raise prices - you've distributed the cost among enough of us - quit being greedy; profits don't have to increase each year. Just making a profit when so many people are struggling to live should be good enough.) But quit worrying about stupid icons so much, and eliminate that totally utterly stupid idea of forcing an MS account just to install Windows. Your corporate head honchos are bending over backwards to make a dystopian future where everyone is looked at as a number with a revenue stream associated with it. Quit it! Focus on improving the user experience! Like some of the flakiness of Word when pictures are moved around! And combining the Control Panel and the new Settings program! Based on how well you did with VBA and Office overall, and my praise thereof, YOU CAN DO IT!!! Best wishes for a continuously improving future!!! And Thanks Again!
Our Forgotten Astronomy | Object Oriented Programming with C++
You're probably better off using the free SQL Server express than Access. Also, Power BI is like Excel but with better and easier visualizations. With that said, MSN.com is really bad about censoring certain views on particular topics.