A language by any other name
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XML is a meta language, not a language. From XML.com: "XML specifies neither semantics nor a tag set. In fact XML is really a meta-language for describing markup languages." cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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So we're agreed that neither your comments or mine have added anything to the discussion, because the fact that the word language is used in the name indicates intent, but not if that goal was met. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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XML is a meta language, not a language. From XML.com: "XML specifies neither semantics nor a tag set. In fact XML is really a meta-language for describing markup languages." cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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Hm... althought correct, it doesn't introduce any value into this discussion. Having "Language" in the name expresses an intent, so knowing what a language is (in the computer field you should probably assume that language means a "formal language") all is left to do is to find a specification and see if it fits into the definition of (formal) language. So, having language in the name is not an asnswer, but it is a clue, which is what I was giving.
George I am not sure whether you are brave or daft because that was Christian you just replied to... Whichever it is, better get some armour on there boyo... :-D "In ccccooorrrnneeerrr one we have the braaaaaavvvve Georrrrrrggggeeee... and innnnn corner twooo the Mr. Fantastical Skeptic Cccchhrriissttiiaaann..." ;P I had better add to the discussion though, hadn't I? :-D regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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What would be a difference between the meta- and language? Is the meta-language a subset of the formal languages(like a square is a rectangle)? Then if meta-language is a formal language, then if xml is meta-language then xml is also a formal language...
Interesting this: meta A prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on, X. For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax, metalanguage is a language used to discuss language, meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is reasoning about reasoning. LOL, come to think about our very discussions could be considered meta. Our discussions on how this forum should work and does work could be considered meta-forum discussions, surely? XML is a meta-language as Chris points out. It is still a language though and along with your square/rectangle example you could say XML is to data as Shape is to Rectangle, a description. Not a subset but a superset. *groans* this is way too early in the morning for me... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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George I am not sure whether you are brave or daft because that was Christian you just replied to... Whichever it is, better get some armour on there boyo... :-D "In ccccooorrrnneeerrr one we have the braaaaaavvvve Georrrrrrggggeeee... and innnnn corner twooo the Mr. Fantastical Skeptic Cccchhrriissttiiaaann..." ;P I had better add to the discussion though, hadn't I? :-D regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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Well, XML is a Language, but not a programming language. I have a harder one, what you thing about SQL? Is it a programming language? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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Interesting this: meta A prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on, X. For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax, metalanguage is a language used to discuss language, meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is reasoning about reasoning. LOL, come to think about our very discussions could be considered meta. Our discussions on how this forum should work and does work could be considered meta-forum discussions, surely? XML is a meta-language as Chris points out. It is still a language though and along with your square/rectangle example you could say XML is to data as Shape is to Rectangle, a description. Not a subset but a superset. *groans* this is way too early in the morning for me... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Right. Then again, the intent of XML being a meta-language might does not mean that it actually is a meta-language. Perhaps it turned out to be actual language despite all the efforts? ;) (even thought they were "making" a shape, a rectangle came out) leave alone meta - use the full phase and you get: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=metalanguage Main Entry: meta·lan·guage (snip) : a language used to talk about language
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Interesting this: meta A prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on, X. For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax, metalanguage is a language used to discuss language, meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is reasoning about reasoning. LOL, come to think about our very discussions could be considered meta. Our discussions on how this forum should work and does work could be considered meta-forum discussions, surely? XML is a meta-language as Chris points out. It is still a language though and along with your square/rectangle example you could say XML is to data as Shape is to Rectangle, a description. Not a subset but a superset. *groans* this is way too early in the morning for me... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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I agree, good point there markkuk. XML is a language for defining data structures, not a programming language.
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Interesting this: meta A prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on, X. For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax, metalanguage is a language used to discuss language, meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is reasoning about reasoning. LOL, come to think about our very discussions could be considered meta. Our discussions on how this forum should work and does work could be considered meta-forum discussions, surely? XML is a meta-language as Chris points out. It is still a language though and along with your square/rectangle example you could say XML is to data as Shape is to Rectangle, a description. Not a subset but a superset. *groans* this is way too early in the morning for me... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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Right. Then again, the intent of XML being a meta-language might does not mean that it actually is a meta-language. Perhaps it turned out to be actual language despite all the efforts? ;) (even thought they were "making" a shape, a rectangle came out) leave alone meta - use the full phase and you get: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=metalanguage Main Entry: meta·lan·guage (snip) : a language used to talk about language
Well I think their intent definitley was for XML to be a meta-language (not in the formal programming language definition though) and they have succeeded in it. Now however naturally we have all this data described by XML sitting around and we need a way of processing it, acting on it. Thus came about XSL which is a programming language. In a bad example XML is to a SQL database and XSL is to ASP or C#. btw what was the original question? (is that a meta-question ? LOL) Oh and ORI below throws us for a loop by correctly stating that meta is also beyond, as in metaphysics or beyond-physics... so could XML be beyond language? ;P regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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Well I think their intent definitley was for XML to be a meta-language (not in the formal programming language definition though) and they have succeeded in it. Now however naturally we have all this data described by XML sitting around and we need a way of processing it, acting on it. Thus came about XSL which is a programming language. In a bad example XML is to a SQL database and XSL is to ASP or C#. btw what was the original question? (is that a meta-question ? LOL) Oh and ORI below throws us for a loop by correctly stating that meta is also beyond, as in metaphysics or beyond-physics... so could XML be beyond language? ;P regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Metalanguage is also a language, hence XML is a language. XML.com also mentiones that it is a "markup language". Still a language. A mere fact that you can describe data in it has no meaning. Only it's definition can tell, not it's name nor purpose. Does it have grammar etc... If it has all the proper structures typical for formal languages then it's a formal language.
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Well, XML is a Language, but not a programming language. I have a harder one, what you thing about SQL? Is it a programming language? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
Hmmmmm, it *is* possible to "program" in SQL, if you make Stored Procedures, but still, I would not call it a programming language. It's a query language... - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Interesting this: meta A prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on, X. For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax, metalanguage is a language used to discuss language, meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is reasoning about reasoning. LOL, come to think about our very discussions could be considered meta. Our discussions on how this forum should work and does work could be considered meta-forum discussions, surely? XML is a meta-language as Chris points out. It is still a language though and along with your square/rectangle example you could say XML is to data as Shape is to Rectangle, a description. Not a subset but a superset. *groans* this is way too early in the morning for me... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
...some nice meta-meta-thoughts :rolleyes: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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Well, XML is a Language, but not a programming language. I have a harder one, what you thing about SQL? Is it a programming language? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
tSQL (Transactional Structured Query Language i beleive) is a programming language. You can query the SQL database with tSQL as well as perform IF statements, get the time, date, access files etc. all using tSQL. Other variations could be mySQL etc. I may be totally wrong though... regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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...some nice meta-meta-thoughts :rolleyes: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
:rolleyes: oi vey, my head, my head! regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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Well, XML is a Language, but not a programming language. I have a harder one, what you thing about SQL? Is it a programming language? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
A real programming language should be "Turing complete", i.e. you can do in the language anything a Turing Machine can do. One way to prove Turing Completeness of a language is to write a Turing Machine simulator in it. Standard SQL isn't Turing complete, but most database products contain language extensions needed to make it a true programming language.
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Hmmmmm, it *is* possible to "program" in SQL, if you make Stored Procedures, but still, I would not call it a programming language. It's a query language... - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
Actually its not only a query language, its a Structured query language! ... I am so wise... :suss: (2b || !2b)
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meta-data meta-beats meta-file meta-hands-down :) Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com