You can hate on Elon Musk all day long if you want
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I could not disagree with you more. Socialism, and Communism died a long time ago. (Think Russia) Elon Musk has succeeded in a very demanding and and cut-throat environment. Do you feel the same way about Bill Gates? Or Steve Jobs? Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need. Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not. Adam Smith's "Supply and Demand" isn't just a good idea, it's the law. I know you are entitled to your opinion, but so am I, and this is mine. I do wish you well.
Ed
Slow Eddie wrote:
Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need. Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not.
With all due respect, but that's a very naive point of view. A whole lot of people work hard and take risks, yet only very few of them are this disproportionately rich. People like Bezos, Musk and Gates are this wealthy because of luck, being at the right place at the right time, possibly with the right product. I'm not saying they didn't work hard, and you can enforce luck to some extent, but luck is still a huge factor. And then when they get that lucky break, and the money comes rolling in, there's no stopping it. These companies buy out their competition, have the best lawyers, pay relatively few tax, are so ingrained in every day life it's nearly impossible to fight them (or not use them, for that matter)... People who say "just don't use Facebook" are probably unaware that even if they don't have a FB account, FB is still harvesting their data because every website with a FB like/share-button is sharing their browser- and usage data with FB. Yes, they are that powerful and omnipresent, you can't not-use them. As for "lack of humanity", Musk threatened to close an entire factory, making hundreds of people jobless, because he didn't like the state's (temporary) COVID rules (I don't know if he ultimately did it). The richest person on earth, Bezos, is paying his employees the minimum of the minimum while conditions wouldn't even be legal in most of Europe. Steve Jobs was known for being a real asshole. None of them have any difficulty with moving production to China for the lowest possible wages and the worst conditions. Meanwhile their huge hunger for even more of our (often illegally gotten, sold or traded) data is slowly killing off the planet with their huge data centers. The petrochemical industry is even worse, they've actively hidden reports that showed them they were killing the planet for decades. The rich pharmaceuticals have more than once been compared to maffia, and not because they are such good and hard working people. Your supply and demand is also not that simple. For example, there's a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers, yet they won't earn as much as an average IT consultant. There's now a huge demand for houses and prices go up, yet after WWII there was an equal demand for houses, but prices didn't go up simply because people
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Wealth is not a sign of lack of humanity. Musk is something of a corporate welfare queen, but he's also an innovator. If only we had capitalism, instead of what is primarily corporatism (the symbiotic relationship between government and big business).
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Greg Utas wrote:
Wealth is not a sign of lack of humanity.
No, not directly a sign, but the latter is often used to drive the former, so that should not be denied either. There is enough of a correlation for me that I want to see proof of humanity first before I will find the subject worthy of praise. In order to make it to the top without being a snake in a suit, you really have to be clever and quick, and I won't deny Musk has both in some fields, but that still does not prove he isn't a snake also. The truth is, I just don't know. There is no need for me to hold him in any kind of special high regard. I still have "don't look up" echoing somewhere on my retina.
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Greg Utas wrote:
Wealth is not a sign of lack of humanity.
No, not directly a sign, but the latter is often used to drive the former, so that should not be denied either. There is enough of a correlation for me that I want to see proof of humanity first before I will find the subject worthy of praise. In order to make it to the top without being a snake in a suit, you really have to be clever and quick, and I won't deny Musk has both in some fields, but that still does not prove he isn't a snake also. The truth is, I just don't know. There is no need for me to hold him in any kind of special high regard. I still have "don't look up" echoing somewhere on my retina.
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but despite your opinions, he is winning, and he knows exactly what he is doing. If you are not entirely sure what I am talking about: Elon Musk offers to buy Twitter for $41 billion[^]
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It's about a 20% premium to yesterday's close but is predicated on financing and regulatory approval. I think the latter will be a challenge. The excuse will be that it shouldn't be private, but the true reason will be that they don't want the censorship to end.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Go to the head of the class! Continued censorship of 'other' speech is the goal.
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but despite your opinions, he is winning, and he knows exactly what he is doing. If you are not entirely sure what I am talking about: Elon Musk offers to buy Twitter for $41 billion[^]
Well, I have seen more out of Musk that makes me believe he understands social interaction better then Bill Gates. Bill Gates NEVER polled his user base about anything, just pushed his latest "improvement" to a captive audience. Don't even start about Linux on the desktop... Not that anyone is comparing directly, but Gates is a real oligarch and fascist. Musk seems to be more of an attention whore much like Trump.
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Slow Eddie wrote:
Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need. Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not.
With all due respect, but that's a very naive point of view. A whole lot of people work hard and take risks, yet only very few of them are this disproportionately rich. People like Bezos, Musk and Gates are this wealthy because of luck, being at the right place at the right time, possibly with the right product. I'm not saying they didn't work hard, and you can enforce luck to some extent, but luck is still a huge factor. And then when they get that lucky break, and the money comes rolling in, there's no stopping it. These companies buy out their competition, have the best lawyers, pay relatively few tax, are so ingrained in every day life it's nearly impossible to fight them (or not use them, for that matter)... People who say "just don't use Facebook" are probably unaware that even if they don't have a FB account, FB is still harvesting their data because every website with a FB like/share-button is sharing their browser- and usage data with FB. Yes, they are that powerful and omnipresent, you can't not-use them. As for "lack of humanity", Musk threatened to close an entire factory, making hundreds of people jobless, because he didn't like the state's (temporary) COVID rules (I don't know if he ultimately did it). The richest person on earth, Bezos, is paying his employees the minimum of the minimum while conditions wouldn't even be legal in most of Europe. Steve Jobs was known for being a real asshole. None of them have any difficulty with moving production to China for the lowest possible wages and the worst conditions. Meanwhile their huge hunger for even more of our (often illegally gotten, sold or traded) data is slowly killing off the planet with their huge data centers. The petrochemical industry is even worse, they've actively hidden reports that showed them they were killing the planet for decades. The rich pharmaceuticals have more than once been compared to maffia, and not because they are such good and hard working people. Your supply and demand is also not that simple. For example, there's a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers, yet they won't earn as much as an average IT consultant. There's now a huge demand for houses and prices go up, yet after WWII there was an equal demand for houses, but prices didn't go up simply because people
Well written generic response. Yes, luck is always a factor, that goes for every single person on earth. But let's get specific: How many companies / competitors did Musk buy? Did he work his butt off and take risks very few others would have, including putting his entire net worth into companies like SpaceX and Tesla, which both came very close to bankruptcy? Did he work at least as long hours as his employees? By all reports, he doesn't have much of a personal life. You obviously haven't done much research, because Tesla didn't close the Fremont factory. Instead, they have expanded it to the point where it's producing way more than it ever did under GM or Toyota. As for moving production to China, yes, he built a factory in Shanghai. But you will note that it does not export back to the USA, and is only exporting some production to Europe until the German factory is in full production. It's friendlier for the environment and probably better for business (if done efficiently) to produce locally where the goods are going to be sold. Similarly, the new Texas factory will be selling to the eastern US. By all reports, all of those factories are some of the best designed and run in the world. While there are obviously some disgruntled ex-employees, Tesla and SpaceX also seem to retain the loyalty and enthusiasm of a lot of their employees, unlike, for example, Amazon. As for net worth, this has effectively been 'voted' to them by their investors, and allowed/encouraged by the elected officials of the land. If you have an issue with that, there is an obvious remedy. Change the government.
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but despite your opinions, he is winning, and he knows exactly what he is doing. If you are not entirely sure what I am talking about: Elon Musk offers to buy Twitter for $41 billion[^]
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Except his wealth isn't a sign of his success or his smarts -- it is a sign of his lack of humanity. And the ONLY way you can view it as "winning" is from a sociopathic point of view. What YOU are doing is called "Simping for Capatilists" (look it up).
Judging people's "level of humanity" or demonizing them based on their wealth or lack thereof is logically fallacious. Free market capitalism is the only economic system that has raised the living standard of the whole world. What you seem to be doing is Simping for Marxists.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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You'd probably enjoy this[^]. Taibbi was the one who called Goldman Sachs a vampire squid, so the hypocrisy of those gnashing their teeth over Musk's bid has to be over the top for Taibbi to have written this.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Well written generic response. Yes, luck is always a factor, that goes for every single person on earth. But let's get specific: How many companies / competitors did Musk buy? Did he work his butt off and take risks very few others would have, including putting his entire net worth into companies like SpaceX and Tesla, which both came very close to bankruptcy? Did he work at least as long hours as his employees? By all reports, he doesn't have much of a personal life. You obviously haven't done much research, because Tesla didn't close the Fremont factory. Instead, they have expanded it to the point where it's producing way more than it ever did under GM or Toyota. As for moving production to China, yes, he built a factory in Shanghai. But you will note that it does not export back to the USA, and is only exporting some production to Europe until the German factory is in full production. It's friendlier for the environment and probably better for business (if done efficiently) to produce locally where the goods are going to be sold. Similarly, the new Texas factory will be selling to the eastern US. By all reports, all of those factories are some of the best designed and run in the world. While there are obviously some disgruntled ex-employees, Tesla and SpaceX also seem to retain the loyalty and enthusiasm of a lot of their employees, unlike, for example, Amazon. As for net worth, this has effectively been 'voted' to them by their investors, and allowed/encouraged by the elected officials of the land. If you have an issue with that, there is an obvious remedy. Change the government.
This same dynamic played out during the Russian Revolution. The basic premise is that any person in power or who had money was by necessity evil. People were placed in the gulag for the crime of having employed other people. That isn't an exaggeration or a joke - paying someone else a salary made you a criminal. Because of that premise the entire power structure in Russia had to be replaced via revolution. So the person you're trying to refute is using the same premise. The rich are inherently corrupt. You'll get nowhere in the discussion with this person because they hold that as a statement of faith. The idiocy of that position is that somehow government officials (State of California) cannot be corrupt even though they are rich and powerful. So the expectation is that Elon Musk bend over and take it up the backside and not protest in any way despite what whack-a-doodle policies come down from Sacramento.
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Don't forget that most of Musk's wealth is in stock, which while relatively easily converted to cash via sales, will result in taxes and potential stock price drops. I don't think there'll be a Tesla stock price drop from this because Musk has said why he's selling, but at least one investment bank will panic and sell, thereby losing money that they'll attempt to blame Musk for (it's happened before).
Smart Rich People (Gates) do NOT sell their stock easily. Instead, they borrow against it, which has ZERO tax implications, and usually gives them an INSANELY good rate, since the loan is guaranteed. In Gates Case, this is how he built his house. And I believe he waited for the price of MSFT to quadruple from when he took the loan out. Then he sold. Paid half in taxes, and the other half, paid off the loan. he bought the house, effectively for the interest he paid. Money... When you have a enough of it, is an amazing thing. And generally, Rich people defer and defray taxes far better than the middle class. Who absorbs them. (Would you spend $800k up front and $200k/yr to SHELTER your income taxes? Not if you make what a developer makes! But if you made MILLIONS a year. Heck Yeah!)
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Dehumanizing the wealthy as predatory criminals is a nice way to set up for a purge, isn't it? Most of us have seen this play already and we know how it ends.
I have seen this discussion trick already. Just don't put words in my mouth, ok? And, now that we're at it, don't pretend that you didn't try it ..
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I have seen this discussion trick already. Just don't put words in my mouth, ok? And, now that we're at it, don't pretend that you didn't try it ..
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You'd probably enjoy this[^]. Taibbi was the one who called Goldman Sachs a vampire squid, so the hypocrisy of those gnashing their teeth over Musk's bid has to be over the top for Taibbi to have written this.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Awesome, and NAILS it. We have not had "free" speech in a very long time. Funny, when it was only newsletters with no real reach... Speech was freer. Once we got the internet... And free could be truly free... It's amazing that companies shut it down. Now, if it turned out that ANY pressure to shut it down, came in the form of GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (ie, we will continue to pay you for the portals you give us to SPY on citizens, but you must also shut down "dangerous" speech)... Then I believe this would constitute an "Actual Conspiracy". Dr. Shiva, for example, showed in his court case, that his Twitter was shadow-banned (something we were told was NOT a thing by the CEO just months earlier)... And it was done by a PUBLIC EMPLOYEE of the state, who did not like Dr. Shivas views/complaints/speech. To me, this is collusion. But if you can show it happened in ONE other place, and you can show that the Public Employees knew how to ask for this power... Then I believe you have a "Conspiracy" criminal charge. But good luck with that in todays America... Or is it Amerika already!
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"to hold him in any kind of special high regard" I wrote. Don't leave that out.
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"to hold him in any kind of special high regard" I wrote. Don't leave that out.
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Slow Eddie wrote:
Wealth is attained by providing goods and services that people want, and need. Those guys worked hard and took risks that most people on this earth would not.
With all due respect, but that's a very naive point of view. A whole lot of people work hard and take risks, yet only very few of them are this disproportionately rich. People like Bezos, Musk and Gates are this wealthy because of luck, being at the right place at the right time, possibly with the right product. I'm not saying they didn't work hard, and you can enforce luck to some extent, but luck is still a huge factor. And then when they get that lucky break, and the money comes rolling in, there's no stopping it. These companies buy out their competition, have the best lawyers, pay relatively few tax, are so ingrained in every day life it's nearly impossible to fight them (or not use them, for that matter)... People who say "just don't use Facebook" are probably unaware that even if they don't have a FB account, FB is still harvesting their data because every website with a FB like/share-button is sharing their browser- and usage data with FB. Yes, they are that powerful and omnipresent, you can't not-use them. As for "lack of humanity", Musk threatened to close an entire factory, making hundreds of people jobless, because he didn't like the state's (temporary) COVID rules (I don't know if he ultimately did it). The richest person on earth, Bezos, is paying his employees the minimum of the minimum while conditions wouldn't even be legal in most of Europe. Steve Jobs was known for being a real asshole. None of them have any difficulty with moving production to China for the lowest possible wages and the worst conditions. Meanwhile their huge hunger for even more of our (often illegally gotten, sold or traded) data is slowly killing off the planet with their huge data centers. The petrochemical industry is even worse, they've actively hidden reports that showed them they were killing the planet for decades. The rich pharmaceuticals have more than once been compared to maffia, and not because they are such good and hard working people. Your supply and demand is also not that simple. For example, there's a huge demand for healthcare workers and teachers, yet they won't earn as much as an average IT consultant. There's now a huge demand for houses and prices go up, yet after WWII there was an equal demand for houses, but prices didn't go up simply because people
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but despite your opinions, he is winning, and he knows exactly what he is doing. If you are not entirely sure what I am talking about: Elon Musk offers to buy Twitter for $41 billion[^]
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That doesn't change the message. He still has to prove his humanity - which is something that should be granted. My guess is you meant: He has to demonstrate some sort of moral fibre. If that is the case then we're in agreement.
Whatever ...
