Really?
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We're both hopeless luddites when it comes to the Framework du jour. The fundamental problem with frameworks is that as soon as your requirements go outside the framework you start fighting the framework. Since no two projects are the same this means that frameworks invariably cause more technical debt that has to be dealt with down the road.
That can be true, but there will usually be more technical debt without a framework.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds to me like you're saying you're overwhelmed by all the frameworks that are out there, with new ones being published daily. You don't need to know every framework that's out there. Or even know about those frameworks. When I started my career as a Windows developer, I thought I'd become a kick-ass developer if I just learned every API there is in Windows. It didn't take long for me to conclude that's just not realistic. And that's just one company. Read about what you find interesting or is relevant to your job, and ignore the other 99% of the stuff that gets published daily. Most of it is bound not to lead anywhere over time anyway (or at least, not anywhere that should matter to you). Or am I misunderstanding your question?
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
I'm having my hands full with understanding .NET framework(s) :-\
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
obligatory [XKCD](https://xkcd.com/927/).
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
I am not even sure what a framework is and had no idea many existed. All I know is I am looking forward to utilizing "Dear ImGui" perhaps it is a framework as I love its speed appearance and seemingly easy to understand programming interface and quite dislike MFC.
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That can be true, but there will usually be more technical debt without a framework.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
I agree.
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
Edward Aymami wrote:
Am I a hopeless luddite?
No, you are someone who draws inferences based on impressions, rather than careful analysis of context.
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
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A framework really helps if it's intended for your domain and has a low surface-to-volume ratio. Without one, the outcome is superfluous diversity, which makes it hard for software to interoperate without writing glue that would otherwise be unnecessary. Ideally, a framework should be developed internally so that it can evolve to suit the needs of your applications. But if an external framework is a good fit, and if it's responsive to its users, it's worth considering. The worst outcome is a team without a framework. It can happen because management thinks everyone should be developing features or because no developer has enough domain experience to develop a framework.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.When I read about software code having a "low surface to volume ratio", I know I have stumbled into Pseuds Corner. 🙄☹️
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
I'm pretty sure ~90% of that stuff gets created as a learning experience for the author. Hell, even the stuff that makes it into mainstream may lack a product vision, growing instead of being designed. I personally would not consider myself a luddite but I think "do we really need that" more often than "hey, that's some cool new stuff". Actually, I'm a huge tech/software enthusiast. It's just that I'm also a huge fan of use cases, tech solving use cases, not tech for the sake of tech.
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
> Am I a hopeless luddite? If you are, then so am I. I develop my own reusable bits and pieces of course (not sure I'd call them frameworks exactly) but I only pull in an external dependency when I really need it. libFLAC is a good example of the that. Wouldn't want to implement it myself! But then, that's not a framework either, just a library. The only framework proper that I *do* use as ASP.Net. I use it for the 'code behind' pages on my website, and I think it's terrific.
Paul Sanders. If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter - Blaise Pascal. Some of my best work is in the undo buffer.
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
A steep learning curve can be great for learning something useful, and most learning is at least somewhat useful. Also, sharing the project may help others to learn something useful. I do agree that many projects are best done "the hard way" of doing them by hand, particularly one-time projects, but where's the fun in that?
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
Developers love rolling there own code, even when there are existing frameworks out there: Unintentional framework | CommitStrip[^]
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
Are there too many frameworks? Of course not. I don't care how many frameworks there are. I anyway just ignore them all.
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We're both hopeless luddites when it comes to the Framework du jour. The fundamental problem with frameworks is that as soon as your requirements go outside the framework you start fighting the framework. Since no two projects are the same this means that frameworks invariably cause more technical debt that has to be dealt with down the road.
I've worked on a varied bunch of projects using the Django web framework, and the only times I've felt like I'm fighting the framework is when a lesser programmer has written idiotic code because they thought they knew better than the framework in the first place, and I'm the chump stuck maintaining it. There _are_ good frameworks that work for a wide variety of things, but you must drink the kool-aid. You have to do it their way through and through, and only then do you get the benefits of a framework.
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Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds to me like you're saying you're overwhelmed by all the frameworks that are out there, with new ones being published daily. You don't need to know every framework that's out there. Or even know about those frameworks. When I started my career as a Windows developer, I thought I'd become a kick-ass developer if I just learned every API there is in Windows. It didn't take long for me to conclude that's just not realistic. And that's just one company. Read about what you find interesting or is relevant to your job, and ignore the other 99% of the stuff that gets published daily. Most of it is bound not to lead anywhere over time anyway (or at least, not anywhere that should matter to you). Or am I misunderstanding your question?
Pretty sure you're misunderstanding it - the way I read it, he's saying there appear to be a lot of low uptake languages and frameworks with no reason to have been written in the first place outside of a hobby project for a bored programmer, and no reason to enter his eyeballs outside of show&tell. His question is then whether he's mistaken.
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And that's why I stay the hell away from web development.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
You and me too! :-O
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I am not even sure what a framework is and had no idea many existed. All I know is I am looking forward to utilizing "Dear ImGui" perhaps it is a framework as I love its speed appearance and seemingly easy to understand programming interface and quite dislike MFC.
A framework is a library that calls your code. You have to structure your code in specific ways so the framework knows how to call it. Generally they take a huge amount of work off your hands in return for being reasonably inflexible. An example of a framework would be the Django web framework. The `./manage.py` script you use to start the web server calls into Django to handle the command line input, and that's the only command in the management script, control never returns to your entrypoint. Instead, the framework does frameworkey stuff to look at the rest of your code, and calls the bits of it that it recognises in specific scenarios, such as calling a view function when the matching URL conf is matched against a request against the webserver. Compare and contrast to Dear ImGui, which never takes control. You set up the environment, then you call into the library, it does what it needs to, and returns. Control remains with you, Dear ImGui never has need to call back into your code unless you give it a specific callback, in which case it only calls that.
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Every morning I open Code Project and start with the news. Every morning I find a new application or framework or both. My question is how many of those, are actually used by developers, other than the people who created them? I believe that some of those created last year are still in use today, but not many. Really! I don't intend to criticize those that developed them; however, the learning curves have got to be tremendous. Am I a hopeless luddite? What do you think?
I feel the same way for sure. I occasionally get emails from CodeProject containing links such as [Introduction to ELENA Programming Language](https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1127103/Introduction-to-ELENA-Programming-Language), which is just completely insane to me. It has 186 stars on github after a direct push to people's email inboxes. It's quite clearly unasked for, unneeded, and dead on arrival. As a programmer I well understand the itch to strip naked and walk backwards into the sea, writing your own programming language, or compiler, or operating system, or making your own hardware, or whatever, but we're not all Terry A. Davis. Sometimes you should be honest with yourself about your worthless throwaway hobby project being worthless hobby project.
