the srange things in the skies
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It's a shame that in the united states at least, investigative journalism is basically dead. There's just no money in it. Maybe it's the dearth of real coverage of things that leads people down the path of imagining scenarios. I don't know. The people that penned the constitution of the USA thought that the press was so important they referred to it as the 4th estate. Let's just say it's not that now.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
I agree. Objective journalism is scarce. You can hear bits of it on (old-school reporting) BBC, but it's muted. American journalism is far from objective. Every reporter has an opinion as part of their reporting. NOT real journalism.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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I agree. Objective journalism is scarce. You can hear bits of it on (old-school reporting) BBC, but it's muted. American journalism is far from objective. Every reporter has an opinion as part of their reporting. NOT real journalism.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
I have a hard time with the idea of objective and unbiased. I am a firm believer in the idea (coined by Shem the Penman) that there can be no method of human inquiry that exists apart from human activity. Taking a step back, every single one of us has an imperfect view of reality. Everyone. Even if we had all of our facts straight we still can't fully resolve pi, just as an example. In addition to outright errors in our views, we fill in blanks whether we mean to or not. Ergo everything we know is tainted by bias. We can only grasp for perfect and accomplish a gross facsimile of that. The problem I see with news, is a focus on "engagement" rather than reporting (to the best of one's ability) the facts. And I think that's what you mean, so I'm not trying to pick at you. More it's just an observation of mine, that even if a reporter reports facts, there is going to be bias in the way that they report them, whether they intend to or not. There's also bias in terms of what is reported on, and a lot of that is decided in corporate boardrooms. The above wouldn't be such a problem except for there are only like (last time I checked) 6 companies that own all the major media in the United States, so that pool of boardroom execs is pretty small, and they probably all know each other.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I have a hard time with the idea of objective and unbiased. I am a firm believer in the idea (coined by Shem the Penman) that there can be no method of human inquiry that exists apart from human activity. Taking a step back, every single one of us has an imperfect view of reality. Everyone. Even if we had all of our facts straight we still can't fully resolve pi, just as an example. In addition to outright errors in our views, we fill in blanks whether we mean to or not. Ergo everything we know is tainted by bias. We can only grasp for perfect and accomplish a gross facsimile of that. The problem I see with news, is a focus on "engagement" rather than reporting (to the best of one's ability) the facts. And I think that's what you mean, so I'm not trying to pick at you. More it's just an observation of mine, that even if a reporter reports facts, there is going to be bias in the way that they report them, whether they intend to or not. There's also bias in terms of what is reported on, and a lot of that is decided in corporate boardrooms. The above wouldn't be such a problem except for there are only like (last time I checked) 6 companies that own all the major media in the United States, so that pool of boardroom execs is pretty small, and they probably all know each other.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
Sorry, I do not see a distinction between unbiased and objective. Agreed, selective journalism is a form of bias. What is chosen to be reported is a human decision. And yes, the boards are humans. This is somewhat unavoidable and perhaps AI reporting has a role here (yikes). But what you choose to report, make that as objective as possible. The reporter is not the news. They should make that as clear as possible by keeping it as objective as possible. Subtract the human element, 1-1 = 0 bias.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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I am fairly certain that you are the ONLY person in the room that feels their Government and media are shooting straight.
Quote: Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia[^]
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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Sorry, I do not see a distinction between unbiased and objective. Agreed, selective journalism is a form of bias. What is chosen to be reported is a human decision. And yes, the boards are humans. This is somewhat unavoidable and perhaps AI reporting has a role here (yikes). But what you choose to report, make that as objective as possible. The reporter is not the news. They should make that as clear as possible by keeping it as objective as possible. Subtract the human element, 1-1 = 0 bias.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
To be clear I'm not saying there's a distinction. I was saying I don't think there's such thing as truly unbiased.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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To be clear I'm not saying there's a distinction. I was saying I don't think there's such thing as truly unbiased.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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To be clear I'm not saying there's a distinction. I was saying I don't think there's such thing as truly unbiased.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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I Understand. Bias has a human quality to it. Objective is much more neutral. Like math.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
In politics, most definitely in the international variant, what is 'objective' depends on subjective opinions. Most 'facts' are cultural arti_facts_. You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways. Is the play 'Erasmus Montanus' by the Dane Ludvig Holberg well known in English speaking countries? Rasmus proves that his mother is stone: A stone cannot fly. Little Mother cannot fly. Then Little Mother is a stone. ... His mother is shocked to be a stone, so her son has to turn her back into a human again: A stone cannot talk, Little Mother can talk. So Little Mother is not a stone. This play (you can read it in an English translation at ERASMUS MONTANUS OR RASMUS BERG[^]) is always presented as a comedy, and most reader / audience fail to see the satire - how we in academic and political discussions juggle all sorts of 'facts' around to reach whatever conclusion we want. In discussions, I rarely see real 'facts' being presented at all, and if they are, most of the time they are applied as arguments in more or less dubious ways. Unless you agree with the conclusion, of course. Little Mother was very happy about her son's second fact, but not with his first.
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In politics, most definitely in the international variant, what is 'objective' depends on subjective opinions. Most 'facts' are cultural arti_facts_. You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways. Is the play 'Erasmus Montanus' by the Dane Ludvig Holberg well known in English speaking countries? Rasmus proves that his mother is stone: A stone cannot fly. Little Mother cannot fly. Then Little Mother is a stone. ... His mother is shocked to be a stone, so her son has to turn her back into a human again: A stone cannot talk, Little Mother can talk. So Little Mother is not a stone. This play (you can read it in an English translation at ERASMUS MONTANUS OR RASMUS BERG[^]) is always presented as a comedy, and most reader / audience fail to see the satire - how we in academic and political discussions juggle all sorts of 'facts' around to reach whatever conclusion we want. In discussions, I rarely see real 'facts' being presented at all, and if they are, most of the time they are applied as arguments in more or less dubious ways. Unless you agree with the conclusion, of course. Little Mother was very happy about her son's second fact, but not with his first.
Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc. Math, logic, etc. can all be made to have tricks. Erasmus play is an example. You may have heard of the Missing dollar riddle. An accounting trick. Missing dollar riddle - Wikipedia[^] True arguments from both sides can have objective information delivered to bolster their cases. However, I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts. Some facts can have a culture tint, but not most. If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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In politics, most definitely in the international variant, what is 'objective' depends on subjective opinions. Most 'facts' are cultural arti_facts_. You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways. Is the play 'Erasmus Montanus' by the Dane Ludvig Holberg well known in English speaking countries? Rasmus proves that his mother is stone: A stone cannot fly. Little Mother cannot fly. Then Little Mother is a stone. ... His mother is shocked to be a stone, so her son has to turn her back into a human again: A stone cannot talk, Little Mother can talk. So Little Mother is not a stone. This play (you can read it in an English translation at ERASMUS MONTANUS OR RASMUS BERG[^]) is always presented as a comedy, and most reader / audience fail to see the satire - how we in academic and political discussions juggle all sorts of 'facts' around to reach whatever conclusion we want. In discussions, I rarely see real 'facts' being presented at all, and if they are, most of the time they are applied as arguments in more or less dubious ways. Unless you agree with the conclusion, of course. Little Mother was very happy about her son's second fact, but not with his first.
I downloaded Erasmus story. I heard a variation many moons ago. Seems to be about the same. I love logic twists. And yes, juggling is a there, but it's the meta position that's sees the juggling. Beware the meta juggler.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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In politics, most definitely in the international variant, what is 'objective' depends on subjective opinions. Most 'facts' are cultural arti_facts_. You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways. Is the play 'Erasmus Montanus' by the Dane Ludvig Holberg well known in English speaking countries? Rasmus proves that his mother is stone: A stone cannot fly. Little Mother cannot fly. Then Little Mother is a stone. ... His mother is shocked to be a stone, so her son has to turn her back into a human again: A stone cannot talk, Little Mother can talk. So Little Mother is not a stone. This play (you can read it in an English translation at ERASMUS MONTANUS OR RASMUS BERG[^]) is always presented as a comedy, and most reader / audience fail to see the satire - how we in academic and political discussions juggle all sorts of 'facts' around to reach whatever conclusion we want. In discussions, I rarely see real 'facts' being presented at all, and if they are, most of the time they are applied as arguments in more or less dubious ways. Unless you agree with the conclusion, of course. Little Mother was very happy about her son's second fact, but not with his first.
"You may of course pull up some objective, undisputable facts. Then you apply these facts in your argumentation, in very subjective ways." How else can make one's case? Objective, indisputable facts is the fuel to settle an argument. Application is not subjective. It is required. True, settling an argument can also become "might makes right". But we all know that's the evil side.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc. Math, logic, etc. can all be made to have tricks. Erasmus play is an example. You may have heard of the Missing dollar riddle. An accounting trick. Missing dollar riddle - Wikipedia[^] True arguments from both sides can have objective information delivered to bolster their cases. However, I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts. Some facts can have a culture tint, but not most. If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
jmaida wrote:
Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc
For math prove that parallel lines do not intersect in a Euclidean space. For logic prove that when a=b and b=c that a=c. Myself my subjective experience is that both of those are true. If you can prove them then I would really like to see that.
jmaida wrote:
I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts.
Which of course is a subjective statement.
jmaida wrote:
If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
Vast majority of agreements by humans are based on compromises. (And I am not suggesting I know of ones that are not but rather I just do not agree to absolutism.) People who believe that the world is flat still manage to get on airplanes that fly half way around the world to attend flat earth conferences.
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What's more plausible... aliens with advance tech that were somehow able to be suppressed by us low tech human n00bs or the government creating yet another story to fool the sheeple with into giving up more freedoms? And why is it... in the days of 8K video and satellite lenses that can see windshield wipers... every shot of these things are poor quality. I wonder why.
Jeremy Falcon
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jmaida wrote:
Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc
For math prove that parallel lines do not intersect in a Euclidean space. For logic prove that when a=b and b=c that a=c. Myself my subjective experience is that both of those are true. If you can prove them then I would really like to see that.
jmaida wrote:
I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts.
Which of course is a subjective statement.
jmaida wrote:
If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
Vast majority of agreements by humans are based on compromises. (And I am not suggesting I know of ones that are not but rather I just do not agree to absolutism.) People who believe that the world is flat still manage to get on airplanes that fly half way around the world to attend flat earth conferences.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
What's more plausible... aliens with advance tech that were somehow able to be suppressed by us low tech human n00bs or the government creating yet another story to fool the sheeple with into giving up more freedoms?
Err...neither.
Don't reply to me dude. Seriously.
Jeremy Falcon
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Don't reply to me dude. Seriously.
Jeremy Falcon
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axioms, not subjective about artifacts, compromises are just more sophisticated coin flips to settle
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
jmaida wrote:
axioms,
Which is just defining what I said.
jmaida wrote:
not subjective about artifacts,
Your stated opinion is subjective because that is what opinions are.
jmaida wrote:
compromises are just more sophisticated coin flips to settle
Not sure what that means. Complex negotiations involve trade offs and no one actually doing them would claim they were decided by a "coin flip".
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jmaida wrote:
axioms,
Which is just defining what I said.
jmaida wrote:
not subjective about artifacts,
Your stated opinion is subjective because that is what opinions are.
jmaida wrote:
compromises are just more sophisticated coin flips to settle
Not sure what that means. Complex negotiations involve trade offs and no one actually doing them would claim they were decided by a "coin flip".
"Your stated opinion is subjective because that is what opinions are." Your opinion, I believe. On complex negotiations, buying and selling a power plant is a very complex process. The negotiators often encode all their variables, positions, etc. in a simulated purchase agreement. (have a relative who does this). One would be surprised how many of these revolve around just 1 or 2 impasses being settled. Even after a number of iterations. So sometimes they either flip a coin (not literally) and/or trade (compromise if you like) to close the deal.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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jmaida wrote:
Coming a from mathematics and engineering background, I view objective facts as founded in the laws of nature, math and logic, etc
For math prove that parallel lines do not intersect in a Euclidean space. For logic prove that when a=b and b=c that a=c. Myself my subjective experience is that both of those are true. If you can prove them then I would really like to see that.
jmaida wrote:
I dispute that most facts are cultural artifacts.
Which of course is a subjective statement.
jmaida wrote:
If they did we would never settle anything. One long endless argument unless one has objective facts to weigh the scale. True both sides can be right or wrong at the same time, so Flip a coin.
Vast majority of agreements by humans are based on compromises. (And I am not suggesting I know of ones that are not but rather I just do not agree to absolutism.) People who believe that the world is flat still manage to get on airplanes that fly half way around the world to attend flat earth conferences.
Axiom noun 1. a self-evident truth that requires no proof. 2. a universally accepted principle or rule. 3. Logic, Mathematics. a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger