Python problems...
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There's Codon for that: [^]Python-based compiler achieves orders-of-magnitude speedups | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology[^]
>64 Some days the dragon wins. Suck it up.
You rarely if ever find a Python supporter who will agree that some other compiled language is orders-of-magnitude faster than Python. Yet, when Python is compiled, it is speeded up by orders-of-magnitude. The only logical conclusion is that compiled Python is way faster than any other compiled language. Believe it if you want to.
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Dan Neely wrote:
The chuckle[mastadon] s guilty of designing python have no such excuse.
I was there when C pushed out Pascal (and Algol and Simula and ...). Lots of programmers argued in favor of C because they hated all the typing of BEGIN and END (and in some languages CASE - ESAC, DO - OD and PROCEDURE - ERUDECORP). I met lots of programmers who insisted that replacing keywords with braces speeded up their programming. Besides, they argued: All those keywords clutter up the program code. C, using braces for delimiters, is much cleaner, they insisted. Python is just taking this one step further. Why should you have to type a delimiter, if you indent the code? Why clutter up you code with braces? Besides: Using both delimiters and indentation opens for inconsistencies: You could be using a brace without indenting, and the reader might overlook it, or indenting without a brace, leading the reader to think that the indented code makes up a block. If you use indentation only, you avoid such problems. That is how the arguments go. Most modern programmers never wrote a compiler, not even a parser, an in any case, using indents for identifying blocks is not, and has never been, a resource saver. So that argument is never heard. I hope that I do not appear as if I am supporting these arguments! I am certainly not. I am much in favor of making structures very explicit. I want the compiler to check that redundant elements (like indent and textual markers) correspond, and to check that the label on the block close matches than of the block opening. I am definitely not a Python lover.
It seems to be logical that adding these { } to Python with the same semantics as in C would save Python from a lot of criticism ... Like in Cython, where static typing has been added. AFAIK there is also syntax in Python to indicate variable types, but there is nothing done yet with this weird block structure ... :-). Is this feasible (?), perhaps not ... I am dreaming about Python 4.x with { } :-) it's TIOBE rating would probably skyrocket ...
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Ya get used to it ;) (The thing that will do your head in is the error when you keep trying to do
!var) Oh, and good luck with PIP. You've got this! :thumbsup::thumbsup:cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
good luck with PIP
Peripheral Interchange Program? I haven't used that since my PDP-11 days.
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It seems to be logical that adding these { } to Python with the same semantics as in C would save Python from a lot of criticism ... Like in Cython, where static typing has been added. AFAIK there is also syntax in Python to indicate variable types, but there is nothing done yet with this weird block structure ... :-). Is this feasible (?), perhaps not ... I am dreaming about Python 4.x with { } :-) it's TIOBE rating would probably skyrocket ...
As trønderen stated above, with braces whitespace becomes more or less immaterial and so it is, for the most part, with Java, C#, C, C++, etc. And that leads to not having to indent when structuring your code. I was always led to believe that one of the reasons Python made whitespace significant was to enforce "proper" code structure and now all those ugly 2-finger-typed brace characters can be eliminated. In a sense, they actually are there, they're just invisible - and therein lies the rub (at least to braceophiles like me).
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Never had a problem yet with pip. ;P I did say "yet", which probably means trouble the next time I use it.
You've not had the: Package A needs version < X of Package B Package C needs version > X of package B Package D needs Package A and Package C /bangs head on desk
cheers Chris Maunder
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Agreed but with intelligent Python editors why can't they convert between white space and tabs? 4 spaces = 1 tab
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I use two SPACEs per TAB. The simple IDE I wrote can do it, even were I ever to use it for Python. On the other hand, a TAB-stop should be a certain width (e.g. a half inch), regardless of font and display medium, not measured in "character positions". If we could have that, then maybe TABs would make sense.
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Most editors can, but they tend to default to "use tabs" to save file space. And some only do it for modified lines, and ... it's a mess. Just don't use Python is my advice! :laugh:
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
"use tabs" to save file space
I'm quite certain that isn't the reasoning. I think some TABophiles use TABs to save keystrokes. I, of course, use two SPACEs per TAB and otherwise a whole :elephant:ing load of whitespace, vertical space in particular. I am not interested in "saving space" or "saving keystrokes" I need space so I can read the stuff. The simple IDE I developed for myself defaults to TABs because there is no reasonable number of SPACEs to use as a default instead. But what can save file space is that it right-trims SPACEs from lines when it saves a file -- that eliminates a lot more characters from saved files than using TABs.
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Hi All, Being strongly encouraged (read forced) to use Python for a test rig. Okay need to get down with Kids etc. but syntactic white space 'align your tabs' (who came up with that, is it 1988, am I using a BBC micro) oh gord!!!:mad:
Using a programming language named after a snake (a constrictor, no less) is maybe a sign. "the devil made me do it" I do not use python for the reasons mentioned (invisible code, tab and space blindness, etc.) I do use other's python code as pseudo code, of sorts, for C.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
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Using a programming language named after a snake (a constrictor, no less) is maybe a sign. "the devil made me do it" I do not use python for the reasons mentioned (invisible code, tab and space blindness, etc.) I do use other's python code as pseudo code, of sorts, for C.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day" Badfinger
To be perfectly honest I think the retail price of Python has more to do with it popularity than anything else. Remember you get what you pay for. :omg:
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As trønderen stated above, with braces whitespace becomes more or less immaterial and so it is, for the most part, with Java, C#, C, C++, etc. And that leads to not having to indent when structuring your code. I was always led to believe that one of the reasons Python made whitespace significant was to enforce "proper" code structure and now all those ugly 2-finger-typed brace characters can be eliminated. In a sense, they actually are there, they're just invisible - and therein lies the rub (at least to braceophiles like me).
Yes, I agree ... I even do not notice anymore how I type them :-). I got so much used to them that code without them seems odd (and my brain is warning me - this won't work, so I get in persistent confusion when looking at standard Python code). Also, the missing ; in some languages' code bugs me a lot ... It seems that in Go it is implicit, for some strange reason ... (there is always a good reason for something like this :-) of course )
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:shudder: Not to diss on COBOL, but after thirty+ years I still remember having to help a fellow college student debug a COBOL program which wasn't working. She had used TABs to pad a string to the desired length -- it looked OK on a VT100, but the compiler knew better.
That's my main problem with Python as well. Tabs? Spaces? Who knows? Source code should not be invisible. I will make a grudging exception for line based grammars like Visual BASIC. At least that's manageable.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
"use tabs" to save file space
I'm quite certain that isn't the reasoning. I think some TABophiles use TABs to save keystrokes. I, of course, use two SPACEs per TAB and otherwise a whole :elephant:ing load of whitespace, vertical space in particular. I am not interested in "saving space" or "saving keystrokes" I need space so I can read the stuff. The simple IDE I developed for myself defaults to TABs because there is no reasonable number of SPACEs to use as a default instead. But what can save file space is that it right-trims SPACEs from lines when it saves a file -- that eliminates a lot more characters from saved files than using TABs.
The reason I use tabs is Shift+Arrow = Highlight - Tab/Shift-Tab = indent/deindent the block of text. I use this so often when I code that I could scarcely be productive without it.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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The reason I use tabs is Shift+Arrow = Highlight - Tab/Shift-Tab = indent/deindent the block of text. I use this so often when I code that I could scarcely be productive without it.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
honey the codewitch wrote:
Tab/Shift-Tab = indent/deindent the block of text
Yes, using the TAB key, but it actually inserts/removes the necessary number of SPACEs rather than TABs. I don't see that TAB characters makes a difference in doing that.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
Tab/Shift-Tab = indent/deindent the block of text
Yes, using the TAB key, but it actually inserts/removes the necessary number of SPACEs rather than TABs. I don't see that TAB characters makes a difference in doing that.
Oh, I think my editor uses tabs. So I just use them too. It would be weird anyway for me switching between Tab and spacebar. In the end i always "Format Document" and I've got the process for that tailored more or less to my liking so it's easy and it works for me.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Oh, I think my editor uses tabs. So I just use them too. It would be weird anyway for me switching between Tab and spacebar. In the end i always "Format Document" and I've got the process for that tailored more or less to my liking so it's easy and it works for me.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
I'm not talking about using the spacebar to indent code. I don't think the issue is about what key is pressed, but about what characters are produced and stored. Back when using a VT we had to indent by using the spacebar. But with modern(ish) IDEs we use the TAB key, and have it insert either SPACEs or TABs as configured -- the result looks the same, but it isn't. I don't recall what Turbo Pascal and C/C++ did with TABs. When I use Notepad, I still have to use the spacebar to indent because it uses eight-character-wide TAB-stops, but I don't use that for code.
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I'm not talking about using the spacebar to indent code. I don't think the issue is about what key is pressed, but about what characters are produced and stored. Back when using a VT we had to indent by using the spacebar. But with modern(ish) IDEs we use the TAB key, and have it insert either SPACEs or TABs as configured -- the result looks the same, but it isn't. I don't recall what Turbo Pascal and C/C++ did with TABs. When I use Notepad, I still have to use the spacebar to indent because it uses eight-character-wide TAB-stops, but I don't use that for code.
Ah, I getcha. Sorry. Yeah, I think my editor inserts 4 spaces when I hit tab.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Ah, I getcha. Sorry. Yeah, I think my editor inserts 4 spaces when I hit tab.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
I used to do four, but I've cut down to two. Which is bizarre considering the tiny (8 pt) font I use for code.
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I used to do four, but I've cut down to two. Which is bizarre considering the tiny (8 pt) font I use for code.
No, it’s logical: four spaces would indent too much in relation to font size. Full disclosure: I also use two spaces and a tiny font :-D
Mircea
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No, it’s logical: four spaces would indent too much in relation to font size. Full disclosure: I also use two spaces and a tiny font :-D
Mircea
I have the opposite opinion, I think the indent should remain constant (maybe about a 1/4 or a 1/2 inch) regardless of font size, so a tab-stop would use fewer character-places with a larger font and more with a smaller one. But I know of no IDE which uses absolute tab-stops -- I wouldn't willingly code in a word processor.
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I have the opposite opinion, I think the indent should remain constant (maybe about a 1/4 or a 1/2 inch) regardless of font size, so a tab-stop would use fewer character-places with a larger font and more with a smaller one. But I know of no IDE which uses absolute tab-stops -- I wouldn't willingly code in a word processor.
Let’s agree to disagree :) There is a reason however why letters have a certain height to width ratio. Also paragraph indenting, in books that use it, is proportional to font size. Your artistic eye might know better than your logical brain :)
Mircea
