Internal conflict
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Playing devils advocate, while I agree with what you said, start extending that thought, and things may get out of hand fairly quickly.
Quote:
Whilst you are worried about your rights as a [insert your objectionable behavior here] , you're being ignorant of the impact on those around you.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
jeron1 wrote:
Playing devils advocate, while I agree with what you said, start extending that thought, and things may get out of hand fairly quickly.
Without consideration for others, it is exactly that.
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
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Smoking is a very strong addiction. Stronger than alcohol and in the same league with hard drugs. So, any measures to prevent young people from getting into this habit are justified. With that said the stigma against smokers is absurd. Smokers should have every amenity to get along with their habit. For example, those smoking boots in the European airports are like gas chambers. Whoever invented and approved these should be ashamed.
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I disagree. It's easy to quick smoking. I did it thousands of times
"Mistakes are prevented by Experience. Experience is gained by making mistakes."
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I disagree. It's easy to quick smoking. I did it thousands of times
"Mistakes are prevented by Experience. Experience is gained by making mistakes."
Mark Twain? :)
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Most of them are in Norwegian, and probably not published in the US of A. One that I know is published is a photo book, aimed at preschoolers, for teaching them the difference between boys and girls: "Show Me!". I've got a couple more in the same group - in the 1980s, using photos for such teaching purposes were fully accepted. I don't know the legal status of the pocket edition of "Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung" (or "The little red book"). Even if it isn't forbidden, you will be treated as a suspected communist by owing it, which would strongly affect both your social life and your professional opportunities. (I didn't buy it because of any sympathy with those ideas, but to try to see what they are. The little red book made no sense at all to me!) I've been collecting photo art books for four decades. Some of the photos in "Was ist der Mench? Eine Antwort in 1509 Photos", from the first three world exhibitions of photography, are definitely illegal in the US of A (and maybe even in Norway, but I bought the book in a Norwegian bookstore). The photo books by Sally Mann have definitely been banned from a large number of libraries and other public collections in the US of A, but I guess at least some states permit private ownership (I have bought the books through Amazon). Some of my private writings are such that even in Norway, I keep the text files encrypted. Like after Nine Eleven, I started contemplating what could be the next attack against The American Way. I frequently develop my ideas about various issues as imaginary scenarios, as a novel or script, to see what situations it would create, and which of the actors' reactions I could morally and legally defend. 9/11 led to two of those, and if they got out, I'd be arrested for planning terrorist actions (probably even in Norway). Before you ask: No, they are not, and will never be, published. Book banning is mostly a state level matter in the US of A; few books are banned by federal authorities. So it could be that for every one of my books, there is at least one state who would not ban its contents. But I am convinced that even in the most liberal state I would risk that visiting neighbors might back off in horror when they discover what is in my bookshelf. Later they might reject any invitation from me, and even be unwilling to talk to me. (Even my Norwegian photography friends are reluctant to discuss Sally Mann photos.)
Thanks. Not to make a comparison, but I'm a military history buff and my browsing history can make a Guantanamo resident to blush.
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Hello Codepojectens, it's been a while! So here are two conflicting views on smoking: 1) If you want to smoke, that's your business and not for others to tell you whether you can or can't (as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else), and 2) Smoking should be banned, for the good of society and also for the good of the poor victims of an addictive drug. As I get older, I'm able to think back to freer times when people really were genuinely freer to do what they want, like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms. They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour. Happy days! I suppose we have 'progressed' more from 1) above to 2) or are at least heading there. The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt, which also means I don't have a valid standpoint on the subject - the logic is broken. It's fairly rare for me to be not able to reach some conclusion, even if the conclusion is flawed or just wholly incorrect. Tricky, and for context I've dithered in and out of nicotine addiction (mostly in) for the last 25 years. Vape time.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
This is what smokers get to look forward too: Emphysema[^]. As a lifetime asthmatic, I can tell you, from experience, that not being able to breathe is no fun at all. So my choice is not to breathe second hand smoke. That is my personal right. I am not interested in emphysema on top of my asthma.
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
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Hello Codepojectens, it's been a while! So here are two conflicting views on smoking: 1) If you want to smoke, that's your business and not for others to tell you whether you can or can't (as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else), and 2) Smoking should be banned, for the good of society and also for the good of the poor victims of an addictive drug. As I get older, I'm able to think back to freer times when people really were genuinely freer to do what they want, like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms. They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour. Happy days! I suppose we have 'progressed' more from 1) above to 2) or are at least heading there. The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt, which also means I don't have a valid standpoint on the subject - the logic is broken. It's fairly rare for me to be not able to reach some conclusion, even if the conclusion is flawed or just wholly incorrect. Tricky, and for context I've dithered in and out of nicotine addiction (mostly in) for the last 25 years. Vape time.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
There's bad habits ... and then there are enablers of bad habits; creating addictions.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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Playing devils advocate, while I agree with what you said, start extending that thought, and things may get out of hand fairly quickly.
Quote:
Whilst you are worried about your rights as a [insert your objectionable behavior here] , you're being ignorant of the impact on those around you.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
I re-read your comment about being the "devils advocate" and it's ignorant of addressing the medically proven negative impact that second hand smoke has on bystanders. Going back to the mid-nineties, when smoking inside the workplace was prohibited, it was after hours and I could smell cigarette some. It turned out it was a guy over 100 metres away on the other side of the building. It turned out he felt it was his right to smoke at his desk because it was after hours, so the rules did not apply. The issue was his desk was directly under the air conditioning intake and it was sucking up the smoke and distributing it to both floors of the building. I approached him and explained what was happening. He told me it was his right. I saw his briefcase on the floor. I said to him, if he feels it is okay to flagrantly smoke indoors against policy, then I am free to whip it out and fill his briefcase. He put it out and HR was informed the next day. They had to spend money professionally cleaning the air conditioning system. Do smokers really think that they have rights beyond those of others who choose not to? We have public toilets. I think that we should have public smoke boxes where all the smokers can go and puff to their heart's desire, sharing second hand smoke with each other. The building should prevent smoke from leaking into the public space. They get what they want, and we're free to breathe fresh air. Governments suckle on the tax revenue that cigarette sales generate, so they have plenty of money to invest in this type of scheme.
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
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Smoking is disgusting (both tobacco and the herb). Secondhand smoke is real problem. You can get a secondhand high too from the herb. If you want to destroy yourself, that's fine. People do it all the time with their diet. It's your right. But, your right to do that stops at my right to breathe clean air. It's not victimless. I have to breathe your crap if I'm around you. Back in the day, before the herb was made easier to obtain, you could have a neighbor that smoked cigarettes and they'd be stinky, but you woudln't get a buzz... unless maybe you went right up to them and barely with even that. These days, stoners who lit up right before going grocery shopping, their stank will give you a buzz just from standing next to them. This should not be acceptable (and no intelligent person would buy the medicinal argument). What if I have kids standing next to that stoner in line? Am I not supposed to care about their health? The problem is you cannot legislate decency or morality. These people are filthy but try making "don't be a nasty arse" a law. It's absolutely abhorrent that humanity is as such a stupid state right now that people cannot figure out how to at least keep their vice to themselves and care little enough of others to do something about it (generally speaking here btw... not targeted at you directly). Anyone who thinks that weed stank is acceptable needs to live in Vegas for a year... not as a tourist. It'll fix you, assuming you like to think and are a decent person.
Jeremy Falcon
Do you find yourself stood next door to people smoking 'herb' often then? That's a very rare occurrence in my life, and I don't think I've heard of getting second-hand smoke buzzes. Not disputing it mind, just very eye opening.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Rob Philpott wrote:
... as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else ... ... the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms ...
Your example doesn't exactly fit into #1 though. :laugh:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
That's true, but back then it was just normal and usual. I guess people have become more sensitive to it (psychologically) over the years. Incidentally on a similar note, I don't recall peanut allergies existing as a kid. But these days peanuts seem to be contraband in school. And there weren't seatbelts in the back of cars or bouncy tarmac under climbing frames. What a strange wonderful world it was - and that's not because I dismiss all these advances in safety and wellbeing, but simply because people didn't worry about them then.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Probably because most people ignore the "responsibility" part and focus on "personal". Take mobile phone use when driving, or DUI: People who do it don't think about the effect on others just their own wants and needs. Coercion is required because personal responsibility isn't even considered. Smoking is the same: my parents both smoked, and sometimes it was difficult to see out the window on the other side of the car due to the smoke level. To protect the children it's now illegal in many places - but you still see people doing it!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Sadly I think society has entered a period where rights trump responsibility. I think 'selfie sticks' sum it up, I was quite shocked the first time I saw one, what new level of vanity was this? But culture adopted this sort of thing willingly. Yes it's completely normal to take endless pictures of yourself to post on the internet these days. It's very odd and inward looking when you think about it. Man, I'm really on a 'middle-aged man depressed with the state of the world' roll today!
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Do you find yourself stood next door to people smoking 'herb' often then? That's a very rare occurrence in my life, and I don't think I've heard of getting second-hand smoke buzzes. Not disputing it mind, just very eye opening.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Yeah... It's probably location dependent. If it's rare for you, consider yourself lucky. Not really sure how much I can say in the lounge, but in some places in the US it's become very easy to acquire said herb. So easy in fact, I never thought once about moving to a different country until now.
Jeremy Falcon
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Most of them are in Norwegian, and probably not published in the US of A. One that I know is published is a photo book, aimed at preschoolers, for teaching them the difference between boys and girls: "Show Me!". I've got a couple more in the same group - in the 1980s, using photos for such teaching purposes were fully accepted. I don't know the legal status of the pocket edition of "Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung" (or "The little red book"). Even if it isn't forbidden, you will be treated as a suspected communist by owing it, which would strongly affect both your social life and your professional opportunities. (I didn't buy it because of any sympathy with those ideas, but to try to see what they are. The little red book made no sense at all to me!) I've been collecting photo art books for four decades. Some of the photos in "Was ist der Mench? Eine Antwort in 1509 Photos", from the first three world exhibitions of photography, are definitely illegal in the US of A (and maybe even in Norway, but I bought the book in a Norwegian bookstore). The photo books by Sally Mann have definitely been banned from a large number of libraries and other public collections in the US of A, but I guess at least some states permit private ownership (I have bought the books through Amazon). Some of my private writings are such that even in Norway, I keep the text files encrypted. Like after Nine Eleven, I started contemplating what could be the next attack against The American Way. I frequently develop my ideas about various issues as imaginary scenarios, as a novel or script, to see what situations it would create, and which of the actors' reactions I could morally and legally defend. 9/11 led to two of those, and if they got out, I'd be arrested for planning terrorist actions (probably even in Norway). Before you ask: No, they are not, and will never be, published. Book banning is mostly a state level matter in the US of A; few books are banned by federal authorities. So it could be that for every one of my books, there is at least one state who would not ban its contents. But I am convinced that even in the most liberal state I would risk that visiting neighbors might back off in horror when they discover what is in my bookshelf. Later they might reject any invitation from me, and even be unwilling to talk to me. (Even my Norwegian photography friends are reluctant to discuss Sally Mann photos.)
Once you start taking photos of naked kids everywhere, it's a fine line between learning and child abuse. That's a parental matter anyway and doesn't belong in schoolbooks. Personally, I'm proud of my country for saying no to that. As far as other books, it's legal to buy the communist manifesto here, so you may wish to double-check where you learned that. You are correct... we are not fond of commies here. But, it's not illegal to think like one.
Jeremy Falcon
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Hello Codepojectens, it's been a while! So here are two conflicting views on smoking: 1) If you want to smoke, that's your business and not for others to tell you whether you can or can't (as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else), and 2) Smoking should be banned, for the good of society and also for the good of the poor victims of an addictive drug. As I get older, I'm able to think back to freer times when people really were genuinely freer to do what they want, like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms. They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour. Happy days! I suppose we have 'progressed' more from 1) above to 2) or are at least heading there. The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt, which also means I don't have a valid standpoint on the subject - the logic is broken. It's fairly rare for me to be not able to reach some conclusion, even if the conclusion is flawed or just wholly incorrect. Tricky, and for context I've dithered in and out of nicotine addiction (mostly in) for the last 25 years. Vape time.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Get reminded of [this person](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhbY2e3zdiw). He outlived all the doctors who advised him to quit smoking. Looks like one in a billion possibility, though.
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Hello Codepojectens, it's been a while! So here are two conflicting views on smoking: 1) If you want to smoke, that's your business and not for others to tell you whether you can or can't (as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else), and 2) Smoking should be banned, for the good of society and also for the good of the poor victims of an addictive drug. As I get older, I'm able to think back to freer times when people really were genuinely freer to do what they want, like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms. They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour. Happy days! I suppose we have 'progressed' more from 1) above to 2) or are at least heading there. The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt, which also means I don't have a valid standpoint on the subject - the logic is broken. It's fairly rare for me to be not able to reach some conclusion, even if the conclusion is flawed or just wholly incorrect. Tricky, and for context I've dithered in and out of nicotine addiction (mostly in) for the last 25 years. Vape time.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
My wife is allergic to cigarette and cigar smoke. She does her best to avoid smokers as a result and we won't go places where we have reason to believe there will be smokers, but when someone lights up in areas that are posted as no smoking they are now impacting her health.
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I re-read your comment about being the "devils advocate" and it's ignorant of addressing the medically proven negative impact that second hand smoke has on bystanders. Going back to the mid-nineties, when smoking inside the workplace was prohibited, it was after hours and I could smell cigarette some. It turned out it was a guy over 100 metres away on the other side of the building. It turned out he felt it was his right to smoke at his desk because it was after hours, so the rules did not apply. The issue was his desk was directly under the air conditioning intake and it was sucking up the smoke and distributing it to both floors of the building. I approached him and explained what was happening. He told me it was his right. I saw his briefcase on the floor. I said to him, if he feels it is okay to flagrantly smoke indoors against policy, then I am free to whip it out and fill his briefcase. He put it out and HR was informed the next day. They had to spend money professionally cleaning the air conditioning system. Do smokers really think that they have rights beyond those of others who choose not to? We have public toilets. I think that we should have public smoke boxes where all the smokers can go and puff to their heart's desire, sharing second hand smoke with each other. The building should prevent smoke from leaking into the public space. They get what they want, and we're free to breathe fresh air. Governments suckle on the tax revenue that cigarette sales generate, so they have plenty of money to invest in this type of scheme.
Graeme
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time, but I fear the man that has practiced one kick ten thousand times!" - Bruce Lee
The devil is aware of the studies ;). I was simply coming at it from the standpoint of, other behaviors (drinking, gambling, gun ownership (U.S.) :ducks:,...) where studies have shown negative impacts on those around these behaviors.
Graeme_Grant wrote:
Do smokers really think that they have rights beyond those of others who choose not to?
Trying to justify their addictive actions?, and no it's not right.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Get reminded of [this person](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhbY2e3zdiw). He outlived all the doctors who advised him to quit smoking. Looks like one in a billion possibility, though.
:laugh: Yeah, you have to love the world's oldest man spends his days 'eating and smoking'!
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Hello Codepojectens, it's been a while! So here are two conflicting views on smoking: 1) If you want to smoke, that's your business and not for others to tell you whether you can or can't (as long as you do it such that if affects no-one else), and 2) Smoking should be banned, for the good of society and also for the good of the poor victims of an addictive drug. As I get older, I'm able to think back to freer times when people really were genuinely freer to do what they want, like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms. They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour. Happy days! I suppose we have 'progressed' more from 1) above to 2) or are at least heading there. The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt, which also means I don't have a valid standpoint on the subject - the logic is broken. It's fairly rare for me to be not able to reach some conclusion, even if the conclusion is flawed or just wholly incorrect. Tricky, and for context I've dithered in and out of nicotine addiction (mostly in) for the last 25 years. Vape time.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
Rob Philpott wrote:
They were also free to use physical violence in the case of bad behaviour
Corporal punishment in schools is still legal in the United States. Especially in private schools. United Kingdom fully outlawed it in 1997.
Rob Philpott wrote:
like the teachers who used to smoke in my classrooms
Sex also should not be banned. But that shouldn't be happening in the classroom either.
Rob Philpott wrote:
The problem is, to my mind, these mutually exclusive ideas about smoking are both valid and worth defending to the hilt,
Where I am night clubs 1. Allow drinking alcohol. 2. Don't allow marijuana. 3. Don't allow tobacco. 4. Don't allow sex. 5. Don't allow heroin. 6. Don't allow one to beat the wife. Of those 4 out of the 6 are allowed when one is at home. Might note that in the past the last was at least tolerated at home.
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That's true, but back then it was just normal and usual. I guess people have become more sensitive to it (psychologically) over the years. Incidentally on a similar note, I don't recall peanut allergies existing as a kid. But these days peanuts seem to be contraband in school. And there weren't seatbelts in the back of cars or bouncy tarmac under climbing frames. What a strange wonderful world it was - and that's not because I dismiss all these advances in safety and wellbeing, but simply because people didn't worry about them then.
Regards, Rob Philpott.
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Most of them are in Norwegian, and probably not published in the US of A. One that I know is published is a photo book, aimed at preschoolers, for teaching them the difference between boys and girls: "Show Me!". I've got a couple more in the same group - in the 1980s, using photos for such teaching purposes were fully accepted. I don't know the legal status of the pocket edition of "Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung" (or "The little red book"). Even if it isn't forbidden, you will be treated as a suspected communist by owing it, which would strongly affect both your social life and your professional opportunities. (I didn't buy it because of any sympathy with those ideas, but to try to see what they are. The little red book made no sense at all to me!) I've been collecting photo art books for four decades. Some of the photos in "Was ist der Mench? Eine Antwort in 1509 Photos", from the first three world exhibitions of photography, are definitely illegal in the US of A (and maybe even in Norway, but I bought the book in a Norwegian bookstore). The photo books by Sally Mann have definitely been banned from a large number of libraries and other public collections in the US of A, but I guess at least some states permit private ownership (I have bought the books through Amazon). Some of my private writings are such that even in Norway, I keep the text files encrypted. Like after Nine Eleven, I started contemplating what could be the next attack against The American Way. I frequently develop my ideas about various issues as imaginary scenarios, as a novel or script, to see what situations it would create, and which of the actors' reactions I could morally and legally defend. 9/11 led to two of those, and if they got out, I'd be arrested for planning terrorist actions (probably even in Norway). Before you ask: No, they are not, and will never be, published. Book banning is mostly a state level matter in the US of A; few books are banned by federal authorities. So it could be that for every one of my books, there is at least one state who would not ban its contents. But I am convinced that even in the most liberal state I would risk that visiting neighbors might back off in horror when they discover what is in my bookshelf. Later they might reject any invitation from me, and even be unwilling to talk to me. (Even my Norwegian photography friends are reluctant to discuss Sally Mann photos.)
trønderen wrote:
I don't know the legal status of the pocket edition
Your concern is probably valid. Not so much as to whether a native born US citizen can buy them but rather whether an immigrant or even visitor who either brings them in a bag or attempts to have them shipped from another country might go through. Even if finally deemed legal the legal costs for defending oneself could be crippling.
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Yes, some insurance companies have surcharge (significant one) for smokers. I know because I had a friend in my previous company that smokes (hardly anybody still smokes in the US). I wonder in this case why they don't have the same penalty for fat people, or alcoholics? Because they vastly outnumber the smokers and are bigger burden for the health system.
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