Does Not Make Sense...
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After finishing a book about Programming Linux, it seems to me that all of these people out there shouting how great it is missed their decade. Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Back to Linux... this is 2003. And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Yes, it is storming here today, leading to my bad mood and tirade. Also, one of our servers crashed and I had to reinstall W2K and all of the perceived *unnecessary baggage* that comes with it. I guess I need a vacation. onwards and upwards...
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After finishing a book about Programming Linux, it seems to me that all of these people out there shouting how great it is missed their decade. Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Back to Linux... this is 2003. And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Yes, it is storming here today, leading to my bad mood and tirade. Also, one of our servers crashed and I had to reinstall W2K and all of the perceived *unnecessary baggage* that comes with it. I guess I need a vacation. onwards and upwards...
basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? The penguin is cute. Oh yeah, it's anti-Microsoft. basementman wrote: or legacy libraries And while we're at it, let's develop 100,000 man years of new applications for our brand spanking new OS. basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Sounds like forking is something their OS can't do. basementman wrote: I guess I need a vacation Me too! Sadly, the days of home brew computing are long gone. We are at the mercy of the giants for any serious OS contenders, and THEY are being hung by their own petard. :-D Marc Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
A doable project is one that is small enough to be done quickly and big enough to be interesting - Ken Orr
CPP Script Framework Design Page Latest AAL Article AAL blog -
After finishing a book about Programming Linux, it seems to me that all of these people out there shouting how great it is missed their decade. Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Back to Linux... this is 2003. And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Yes, it is storming here today, leading to my bad mood and tirade. Also, one of our servers crashed and I had to reinstall W2K and all of the perceived *unnecessary baggage* that comes with it. I guess I need a vacation. onwards and upwards...
basementman wrote: Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Dude, you must have read the wrong book or something. It's nothing like DOS. Nothing. Linux is not going to save the world, and it is not going to bring everybody fortune, and it's certainly not the best operating system for all purposes. But it is not un-modern. basementman wrote: Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. What's the difference? There is no difference. If you look at the C runtime functions, most of them use handles of some sort. The only difference between
read(fd, buf, sizeof(buf))andfd.read(buf, sizeof(buf))is where you put thefd. If OO-syntax is important to you, you can always wrap the lowlevel stuff yourself (or buy a library which does it for you). I don't see a reason to put extra bloat in the kernel, when you can add the bloat in user land. basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! What's wrong with pthreads? You sound very much like a troll. :) -- Now we live in a world of uncertainty Fear is the key - to what you want to be You don't get a say, the majority gets it's way You're outnumbered by the bastards till the day you die... -
After finishing a book about Programming Linux, it seems to me that all of these people out there shouting how great it is missed their decade. Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Back to Linux... this is 2003. And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Yes, it is storming here today, leading to my bad mood and tirade. Also, one of our servers crashed and I had to reinstall W2K and all of the perceived *unnecessary baggage* that comes with it. I guess I need a vacation. onwards and upwards...
basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Try to run a multithreaded program wich syncs with critical sections on a cluster. Different design goals, different implementations. basementman wrote: Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Because we don't need? basementman wrote: Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. It has been tried, several times before. Last famous try for an OO design on an OS was GNU Hurd[^]. But do you want to get rid of handles? Can you explain me how will you pass kernel "this" pointers to user mode code without ruining process isolation? basementman wrote: I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Maybe I do not have all the knowledge involved, but can you explain me how a unused API on a piece of software can make it slower? I mean, if I copy a DLL to your server that no one will use, will your server become slower? basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
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basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? The penguin is cute. Oh yeah, it's anti-Microsoft. basementman wrote: or legacy libraries And while we're at it, let's develop 100,000 man years of new applications for our brand spanking new OS. basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Sounds like forking is something their OS can't do. basementman wrote: I guess I need a vacation Me too! Sadly, the days of home brew computing are long gone. We are at the mercy of the giants for any serious OS contenders, and THEY are being hung by their own petard. :-D Marc Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
A doable project is one that is small enough to be done quickly and big enough to be interesting - Ken Orr
CPP Script Framework Design Page Latest AAL Article AAL blogMarc Clifton wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? The penguin is cute. Oh yeah, it's anti-Microsoft. This certainly seems to be the main reason for a lot of L337 linux zealots out there.
The nice thing about C++ is that only your friends can handle your private parts.
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basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? The penguin is cute. Oh yeah, it's anti-Microsoft. basementman wrote: or legacy libraries And while we're at it, let's develop 100,000 man years of new applications for our brand spanking new OS. basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Sounds like forking is something their OS can't do. basementman wrote: I guess I need a vacation Me too! Sadly, the days of home brew computing are long gone. We are at the mercy of the giants for any serious OS contenders, and THEY are being hung by their own petard. :-D Marc Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
A doable project is one that is small enough to be done quickly and big enough to be interesting - Ken Orr
CPP Script Framework Design Page Latest AAL Article AAL blog -
basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Try to run a multithreaded program wich syncs with critical sections on a cluster. Different design goals, different implementations. basementman wrote: Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Because we don't need? basementman wrote: Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. It has been tried, several times before. Last famous try for an OO design on an OS was GNU Hurd[^]. But do you want to get rid of handles? Can you explain me how will you pass kernel "this" pointers to user mode code without ruining process isolation? basementman wrote: I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Maybe I do not have all the knowledge involved, but can you explain me how a unused API on a piece of software can make it slower? I mean, if I copy a DLL to your server that no one will use, will your server become slower? basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
Daniel Turini wrote: Maybe I do not have all the knowledge involved, but can you explain me how a unused API on a piece of software can make it slower? I mean, if I copy a DLL to your server that no one will use, will your server become slower? The same way that handles are just an offset into an array of kernel structures. Daniel Turini wrote: But do you want to get rid of handles? Can you explain me how will you pass kernel "this" pointers to user mode code without ruining process isolation? Look at the Mem usage column of the Process Tab on Task Manager. This is one point. Another is the installation time and patching time. I downloaded W2K sp4 last night... 59MB. Daniel Turini wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? No, not compared to the ongoing cost and IT expertise required to maintain it. Also, who do you call when you have a problem? Some geek out in Sweden who is always on a Linux message board? My whole point is that in this day and age, we should be looking for something more cutting edge and streamlined for server development. In my opinion, Linux is outdated technology (I remember installing Xenix back in 1988) and Windows is hugely complex and bloated (4K+ API functions?). onwards and upwards...
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Daniel Turini wrote: Maybe I do not have all the knowledge involved, but can you explain me how a unused API on a piece of software can make it slower? I mean, if I copy a DLL to your server that no one will use, will your server become slower? The same way that handles are just an offset into an array of kernel structures. Daniel Turini wrote: But do you want to get rid of handles? Can you explain me how will you pass kernel "this" pointers to user mode code without ruining process isolation? Look at the Mem usage column of the Process Tab on Task Manager. This is one point. Another is the installation time and patching time. I downloaded W2K sp4 last night... 59MB. Daniel Turini wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? No, not compared to the ongoing cost and IT expertise required to maintain it. Also, who do you call when you have a problem? Some geek out in Sweden who is always on a Linux message board? My whole point is that in this day and age, we should be looking for something more cutting edge and streamlined for server development. In my opinion, Linux is outdated technology (I remember installing Xenix back in 1988) and Windows is hugely complex and bloated (4K+ API functions?). onwards and upwards...
basementman wrote: The same way that handles are just an offset into an array of kernel structures You are trolling. You didn't answer my question and made a stupid association between handles and a performance loss. Sure, a "this" pointer passed to every method is more efficient. Go learn a bit of assembly and then give your modern OS design opinions to people who develop OS. basementman wrote: Look at the Mem usage column of the Process Tab on Task Manager. This is one point. This is your assessment of memory use? Geez, you really need to learn about virtual memory and a thingie named "working set". And how do you think your modern OOP OS would reduce memory consumption? Through virtual method calls? Do you think they don't consume memory and speed? basementman wrote: No, not compared to the ongoing cost and IT expertise required to maintain it. "Free" as free speech not free beer. basementman wrote: Also, who do you call when you have a problem? The same one you call when you have a problem with Windows. Or have you ever called MS? ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
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After finishing a book about Programming Linux, it seems to me that all of these people out there shouting how great it is missed their decade. Linux appears to be very similar to DOS. Yes, DOS 3.3. There is nothing modern about it. Nor cool. There are api's that I thought I had seen the last of 12 years ago. What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Back to Linux... this is 2003. And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Yes, it is storming here today, leading to my bad mood and tirade. Also, one of our servers crashed and I had to reinstall W2K and all of the perceived *unnecessary baggage* that comes with it. I guess I need a vacation. onwards and upwards...
Ah, you mean BEos...... The tigress is here :-D
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basementman wrote: And they don't have any decent thread APIs or critical sections in the system. And this is COOL? Fork this! Try to run a multithreaded program wich syncs with critical sections on a cluster. Different design goals, different implementations. basementman wrote: Why don't we just develop a new, NOT windows OS that is MODERN. Because we don't need? basementman wrote: Like an os that exposes objects, rather than handles, object methods, rather than C runtime functions, and doesn't have 487MB of crap I don't need to run on my server. It has been tried, several times before. Last famous try for an OO design on an OS was GNU Hurd[^]. But do you want to get rid of handles? Can you explain me how will you pass kernel "this" pointers to user mode code without ruining process isolation? basementman wrote: I don't know about you, but I don't need the MS Speech APIs or IM or legacy libraries on my server to run my server code. All it does is bloat it and slow things down. Maybe I do not have all the knowledge involved, but can you explain me how a unused API on a piece of software can make it slower? I mean, if I copy a DLL to your server that no one will use, will your server become slower? basementman wrote: What is the big deal about Linux? That it is free? Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
Daniel Turini wrote: Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? For me it is, but in the negative direction... To me FREE means that there is no one responsible for it. If you pay money for something you have a long term legal path of established responsibility. I don't understand how the risk management bean counters of corporations that have adopted Linux have remained so blind to this. Even if you do concede that you are responsible for it's use in your enterprise you know have to decide who is going to be responsible (and who you are going to pay) to keep it running. It is a balancing act I guess… Linux = Free = You have source = You have to pay someone to build fixes = You own it 100% Windows = Not Free = MS Has control = Fixes come free = MS takes SOME responsibility
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Marc Clifton wrote: The penguin is cute. No, I think I like the little devil more ;P Paul ;)
That's better! It looks like radioactive waste now. - Ryan Binns
And I like this cute little daemonette even more :) http://kurtspace.com/boothbabes/[^] Who can say no to BSD now?
Searching the web without Google is like straining sewage with your teeth.
Userfriendly, 2003/06/07 -
Daniel Turini wrote: Yes. Don't you think that this is a big deal? For me it is, but in the negative direction... To me FREE means that there is no one responsible for it. If you pay money for something you have a long term legal path of established responsibility. I don't understand how the risk management bean counters of corporations that have adopted Linux have remained so blind to this. Even if you do concede that you are responsible for it's use in your enterprise you know have to decide who is going to be responsible (and who you are going to pay) to keep it running. It is a balancing act I guess… Linux = Free = You have source = You have to pay someone to build fixes = You own it 100% Windows = Not Free = MS Has control = Fixes come free = MS takes SOME responsibility
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
Ray Cassick wrote: To me FREE means that there is no one responsible for it. Whenever no one is responsible for something, those who use it are those who are responsible. I agree, it's a very different model. Ray Cassick wrote: Linux = Free = You have source = You have to pay someone to build fixes = You own it 100% Windows = Not Free = MS Has control = Fixes come free = MS takes SOME responsibility Well, you are taking the "free" word as free beer, but even then, the whole OS came for free, and every update and upgrade too. The whole majority of fixes are free, only those who only affect a few people will have to be paid. In this case, it's still cheaper than buying the whole OS. I would love having a free car and only having to pay to fix it when it's broken, specially if it doesn't break too often. ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
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Ray Cassick wrote: To me FREE means that there is no one responsible for it. Whenever no one is responsible for something, those who use it are those who are responsible. I agree, it's a very different model. Ray Cassick wrote: Linux = Free = You have source = You have to pay someone to build fixes = You own it 100% Windows = Not Free = MS Has control = Fixes come free = MS takes SOME responsibility Well, you are taking the "free" word as free beer, but even then, the whole OS came for free, and every update and upgrade too. The whole majority of fixes are free, only those who only affect a few people will have to be paid. In this case, it's still cheaper than buying the whole OS. I would love having a free car and only having to pay to fix it when it's broken, specially if it doesn't break too often. ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
Well, looking at this from a business person perspective, I am VERY weary of things labeled as FREE :) I have had many free beers in my day and they have all (for the most part) ended up coming with string attached. Either the person wanted something after I already drank them, or they were skanky tasting, or they were just not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I like the IDEA behind open source, I just can't get over the hump of a few things: 1) Trust: I just don't like the idea of getting fixes from what really amounts to un-trusted (irresponsible) sources, even if they are free. 2) Support: I know, I know, the open source community is huge and full of people that are more than willing to help out. But again, there is no trail of ultimate responsibility. If the people driving a project suddenly give up or loose interest on the project I have happened to base my entire infrastructure on the only path forward I have is to take on the sole responsibility myself. Now I am not saying that Linux is going to fall off the face of the earth and there will be no one left to support it, but I am not just talking about Linux here. There are other projects that are trying to wiggle their way into corporate infrastructure and I am not comfortable with that. 3) Documentation: Again, I am not talking about Linux here.. I view the available documentation on that as very good from what I have seen. I am talking about other projects. Often, the documentation seems to be the last thing thought of, if it is thought of at all. 4) Security: What risks do I open myself up to using an OS that everyone can get the source code to? It folks have a hard enough time as it is with hackers and virus writers that DON'T have the source code but still seem to be able to bang holes in the OS when ever they feel like it. Just imagine what could happen with an OS that anyone can get the source for?
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Well, looking at this from a business person perspective, I am VERY weary of things labeled as FREE :) I have had many free beers in my day and they have all (for the most part) ended up coming with string attached. Either the person wanted something after I already drank them, or they were skanky tasting, or they were just not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I like the IDEA behind open source, I just can't get over the hump of a few things: 1) Trust: I just don't like the idea of getting fixes from what really amounts to un-trusted (irresponsible) sources, even if they are free. 2) Support: I know, I know, the open source community is huge and full of people that are more than willing to help out. But again, there is no trail of ultimate responsibility. If the people driving a project suddenly give up or loose interest on the project I have happened to base my entire infrastructure on the only path forward I have is to take on the sole responsibility myself. Now I am not saying that Linux is going to fall off the face of the earth and there will be no one left to support it, but I am not just talking about Linux here. There are other projects that are trying to wiggle their way into corporate infrastructure and I am not comfortable with that. 3) Documentation: Again, I am not talking about Linux here.. I view the available documentation on that as very good from what I have seen. I am talking about other projects. Often, the documentation seems to be the last thing thought of, if it is thought of at all. 4) Security: What risks do I open myself up to using an OS that everyone can get the source code to? It folks have a hard enough time as it is with hackers and virus writers that DON'T have the source code but still seem to be able to bang holes in the OS when ever they feel like it. Just imagine what could happen with an OS that anyone can get the source for?
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
Ray Cassick wrote: Well, looking at this from a business person perspective, I am VERY weary of things labeled as FREE LOL. Ray Cassick wrote: 1) Trust: I just don't like the idea of getting fixes from what really amounts to un-trusted (irresponsible) sources, even if they are free. Nice point. Actually, maybe there'll be a market for someone (Redhat, Mandrake, Suse) to be a "trusted" validator, checking open-source code. Or maybe don't, and OSS may fail to reach a critical mass on enterprise world. Ray Cassick wrote: If the people driving a project suddenly give up or loose interest on the project I have happened to base my entire infrastructure on the only path forward I have is to take on the sole responsibility myself. But if a closed source goes out of business you don't even have this path... Ray Cassick wrote: 4) Security: What risks do I open myself up to using an OS that everyone can get the source code to? It folks have a hard enough time as it is with hackers and virus writers that DON'T have the source code but still seem to be able to bang holes in the OS when ever they feel like it. Just imagine what could happen with an OS that anyone can get the source for? If it was true, we would be seeing a huge rise on OSS attacks, and that's not true. Both CSS and OSS seem to be equally unsafe. Actually, if you are good enough, ASM code is almost as readable as source code. I don't believe in security based on any secret other than a password or a key: the algorithms should be public and the code too. Once the secret is out, and everyone knows it, your password have no use anymore. ORACLE One Real A$#h%le Called Lary Ellison
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And I like this cute little daemonette even more :) http://kurtspace.com/boothbabes/[^] Who can say no to BSD now?
Searching the web without Google is like straining sewage with your teeth.
Userfriendly, 2003/06/07