In-place OS upgrade - Linux vs Windows
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First off, I'm not a Linux fanboi. I like to tinker with it, I've played with countless distributions, both mainstream and obscure, and have built more Linux VMs than I can remember. For the first time ever, I'm doing an in-place upgrade right now, of Debian 11 to Debian 12, on a system I'm actually using (hosting Pi-Hole - and that's it). About a total of 8 commands, waiting, a reboot, then all good to go. Actually I'm not sure a reboot will even be necessary; I'm currently still on the waiting phase as packages are being installed... I don't know, I can't quantify it--but I can't shake the feeling that an in-place Linux upgrade leaves the system in much better shape than an in-place Windows upgrade has ever been able to do. Maybe it's the placebo effect. But I always feel dirty upgrading Windows, in that there's probably gigabytes worth of crap the upgrade leaves behind, that Windows has no means of thoroughly cleaning up. Yes, it keeps a WINDOWS.OLD folder, and yes, it will eventually delete it on its own over time...but it still leaves me with a nasty feeling that Linux doesn't. It's not just the disk space, but probably some stuff left running, or badly configured, that can only be avoided by wiping/repaving. After many bad experiences over the decades, I *always* do clean installs of Windows. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it, even if the upgrade is entirely successful. Am I imagining things? Is Linux *truly* more apt (pardon the pun) to do a better job of not leaving unnecessary crap behind?
A colleague of mine always did a clean install instead of in-place upgrade on Ubuntu in the early 2010s because more than once burned himself with incompatibilities in Gnome. So, GUI Linux was different. There is a lot of crp under Linux, too, here and there, as seen personally on a Raspberry Pi after upgrading. The feeling? Do you have the same understanding of your Linux as you have of your Windows installation? Maybe crp is considered magic on the first, and did not touched.
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There is merit to it. Don't hold your breath to find too many Linux experts on CP tho.
Jeremy Falcon
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First off, I'm not a Linux fanboi. I like to tinker with it, I've played with countless distributions, both mainstream and obscure, and have built more Linux VMs than I can remember. For the first time ever, I'm doing an in-place upgrade right now, of Debian 11 to Debian 12, on a system I'm actually using (hosting Pi-Hole - and that's it). About a total of 8 commands, waiting, a reboot, then all good to go. Actually I'm not sure a reboot will even be necessary; I'm currently still on the waiting phase as packages are being installed... I don't know, I can't quantify it--but I can't shake the feeling that an in-place Linux upgrade leaves the system in much better shape than an in-place Windows upgrade has ever been able to do. Maybe it's the placebo effect. But I always feel dirty upgrading Windows, in that there's probably gigabytes worth of crap the upgrade leaves behind, that Windows has no means of thoroughly cleaning up. Yes, it keeps a WINDOWS.OLD folder, and yes, it will eventually delete it on its own over time...but it still leaves me with a nasty feeling that Linux doesn't. It's not just the disk space, but probably some stuff left running, or badly configured, that can only be avoided by wiping/repaving. After many bad experiences over the decades, I *always* do clean installs of Windows. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it, even if the upgrade is entirely successful. Am I imagining things? Is Linux *truly* more apt (pardon the pun) to do a better job of not leaving unnecessary crap behind?
I have (mostly) successfully upgraded Linux (Debian) one release at a time with no serious after-effects. However in one case it killed the main app it was for (NextCloud) because it changed the php and Python versions and a lot of the app is version specific - regressing to php v7 was a total pain, it took me three days of fiddling to get it done properly. Python was easier. Another upgrade that went sideways was my Domoticz server, however that was fixed by a simple re-install. So, in conclusion.... for Linux, it all depends. As for windows, I upgraded from 95 to XP and then to 7 with very little trouble, upgrading that to 10 caused one or two driver problems and USB behaviour became very flaky. Since I needed a 64bit OS for some software this was the occasion to finally do a clean install. I have kept a pared-down copy of the final 7 version as a VM since 10 killed some software.
So old that I did my first coding in octal via switches on a DEC PDP 8
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A colleague of mine always did a clean install instead of in-place upgrade on Ubuntu in the early 2010s because more than once burned himself with incompatibilities in Gnome. So, GUI Linux was different. There is a lot of crp under Linux, too, here and there, as seen personally on a Raspberry Pi after upgrading. The feeling? Do you have the same understanding of your Linux as you have of your Windows installation? Maybe crp is considered magic on the first, and did not touched.
Peter Adam wrote:
The feeling? Do you have the same understanding of your Linux as you have of your Windows installation?
Good point. No, I definitely don't know Linux as well as Windows. That, in itself, probably explains the bias I have against Windows and don't trust it as much not to screw up an upgrade. Maybe if I knew more about Linux, I'd come to the conclusion it's just as likely to screw something up. I know it can. I just have nothing to come up with the likelihood of it happening. As an aside - that Debian 11 -> 12 upgrade went on without a hitch, and didn't even require a reboot. Try that on Windows...
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I did it twice, once on Ubuntu and once on Debian: the whole system became completely unusable and I had to do a fresh install. Same ****, different brand.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
My experience has been similar. I upgraded 5 Win7 computers to Win10. All worked without a hitch. Last week I upgraded a Fedora system and a Ubuntu system. The Fedora upgrade was flawless. Ubuntu trashed itself, so a new install of 22.04.3 was required. I always keep my data on a separate partition from the OS, so there were no other casualties. But Linux does not have a squeaky clean record on upgrades...
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Oh I have - there isn't a single part that was in it a few years ago ... I migrated my HDD to SSD (thanks AOMEI!) and that was the hardest part.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Same here. I was running my original WinXP installation from when it first came out to 2017, when after multiple Windows upgrades and image moves (with AOMEI, etc.) to hard drives and SSDs, I was forced to do a clean install after repeated refusals to install Win10 botched up my installation. Almost 17 years with the original installation.
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First off, I'm not a Linux fanboi. I like to tinker with it, I've played with countless distributions, both mainstream and obscure, and have built more Linux VMs than I can remember. For the first time ever, I'm doing an in-place upgrade right now, of Debian 11 to Debian 12, on a system I'm actually using (hosting Pi-Hole - and that's it). About a total of 8 commands, waiting, a reboot, then all good to go. Actually I'm not sure a reboot will even be necessary; I'm currently still on the waiting phase as packages are being installed... I don't know, I can't quantify it--but I can't shake the feeling that an in-place Linux upgrade leaves the system in much better shape than an in-place Windows upgrade has ever been able to do. Maybe it's the placebo effect. But I always feel dirty upgrading Windows, in that there's probably gigabytes worth of crap the upgrade leaves behind, that Windows has no means of thoroughly cleaning up. Yes, it keeps a WINDOWS.OLD folder, and yes, it will eventually delete it on its own over time...but it still leaves me with a nasty feeling that Linux doesn't. It's not just the disk space, but probably some stuff left running, or badly configured, that can only be avoided by wiping/repaving. After many bad experiences over the decades, I *always* do clean installs of Windows. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it, even if the upgrade is entirely successful. Am I imagining things? Is Linux *truly* more apt (pardon the pun) to do a better job of not leaving unnecessary crap behind?
I had much rather the opposite experience. In the past, for example, I tried to use Fedora on a laptop of mine. Coming out with new versions rather frequently (twice a year), I had problems each and every time, starting from around Fedora 16 or 17 until Fedora 24. Each time something wouldn't work, hang the computer on reboot or even the installer. WiFi pretty much never worked afterwards, I had to manually install it over and over again. Luckily, with Linux Mint, things got better. Though I am currently at the same point, where it won't update to the latest version, always complains about some weird dependency changed (I am just using Linux to develop applications, I don't even have time to fuzz around with the OS itself). Same for my RPi4, just downloaded the latest image and will have to do a clean install, it just won't do a proper in-place upgrade, while it starts so, it will in the end mopper about something not being updated and leaves me where I started. Did dozens of updates for example from Windows XP to Windows 7 (skipping the nonsense that was Vista) just fine. Maybe a newer printer or scanner driver, deleting the Windows.Old folder and the user kept going without issues. Same when people upgraded from Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. Very little issue, maybe some user application didn't like the newer .NET crap and had to manually install an older version by hand (looking at you Intuit/TurboTax). Haven't bothered with any upgrades to Windows 11 yet, though a couple of clients fell for the M$ bullying and clicked the upgrade. Though the most common complain was that the ClassicShell was deactivated and they had to deal with that horrid, nonsense start button/tile-kind of user interface instead of a proper Start Menu "like it used to be". And those fancy cartoon icons...
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Do you call it "ship of Theseus"?
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated. I’m begging you for the benefit of everyone, don’t be STUPID.
Theseus' PC: Totally original except bought running Win XP, now on Win 11, upgraded memory, SSD instead of HDD, new motherboard and CPU (needed for TPM for Win 11), replacement power supply (and case), better graphics card, OLED screen replaced CRT monitor, wireless mouse & keyboard instead of wired versions.
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Theseus' PC: Totally original except bought running Win XP, now on Win 11, upgraded memory, SSD instead of HDD, new motherboard and CPU (needed for TPM for Win 11), replacement power supply (and case), better graphics card, OLED screen replaced CRT monitor, wireless mouse & keyboard instead of wired versions.
Yep, except I also replaced the case, and the mains lead.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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First off, I'm not a Linux fanboi. I like to tinker with it, I've played with countless distributions, both mainstream and obscure, and have built more Linux VMs than I can remember. For the first time ever, I'm doing an in-place upgrade right now, of Debian 11 to Debian 12, on a system I'm actually using (hosting Pi-Hole - and that's it). About a total of 8 commands, waiting, a reboot, then all good to go. Actually I'm not sure a reboot will even be necessary; I'm currently still on the waiting phase as packages are being installed... I don't know, I can't quantify it--but I can't shake the feeling that an in-place Linux upgrade leaves the system in much better shape than an in-place Windows upgrade has ever been able to do. Maybe it's the placebo effect. But I always feel dirty upgrading Windows, in that there's probably gigabytes worth of crap the upgrade leaves behind, that Windows has no means of thoroughly cleaning up. Yes, it keeps a WINDOWS.OLD folder, and yes, it will eventually delete it on its own over time...but it still leaves me with a nasty feeling that Linux doesn't. It's not just the disk space, but probably some stuff left running, or badly configured, that can only be avoided by wiping/repaving. After many bad experiences over the decades, I *always* do clean installs of Windows. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it, even if the upgrade is entirely successful. Am I imagining things? Is Linux *truly* more apt (pardon the pun) to do a better job of not leaving unnecessary crap behind?
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But did you do it correctly and was it using a desktop environment or not?
Jeremy Falcon
Yes and yes, I've been a Linux sysadmin for years before doing both the afore-mentioned botched upgrades, I was also a senior member of my local LUG and performed dozens of installations during Linux days.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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First off, I'm not a Linux fanboi. I like to tinker with it, I've played with countless distributions, both mainstream and obscure, and have built more Linux VMs than I can remember. For the first time ever, I'm doing an in-place upgrade right now, of Debian 11 to Debian 12, on a system I'm actually using (hosting Pi-Hole - and that's it). About a total of 8 commands, waiting, a reboot, then all good to go. Actually I'm not sure a reboot will even be necessary; I'm currently still on the waiting phase as packages are being installed... I don't know, I can't quantify it--but I can't shake the feeling that an in-place Linux upgrade leaves the system in much better shape than an in-place Windows upgrade has ever been able to do. Maybe it's the placebo effect. But I always feel dirty upgrading Windows, in that there's probably gigabytes worth of crap the upgrade leaves behind, that Windows has no means of thoroughly cleaning up. Yes, it keeps a WINDOWS.OLD folder, and yes, it will eventually delete it on its own over time...but it still leaves me with a nasty feeling that Linux doesn't. It's not just the disk space, but probably some stuff left running, or badly configured, that can only be avoided by wiping/repaving. After many bad experiences over the decades, I *always* do clean installs of Windows. I just can't bring myself to fully trust it, even if the upgrade is entirely successful. Am I imagining things? Is Linux *truly* more apt (pardon the pun) to do a better job of not leaving unnecessary crap behind?
Depends on your use-case. I've had more Debian in-place upgrades fail than I care to remember. About half of them. It depends heavily on what packages you use: - do you have additional apt sources configured? - do you package code to fill in dependencies that aren't readily available? - do you rely on closed source drivers? Any of the above can cause issues. Also, when it breaks, it often breaks spectacularly, with no way to recover. That is why I moved from Debian and Debian-based to Arch. At least with the rolling releases, it breaks in a way that's easy to fix. Since WSL1 however, I'm sticking to Windows Pro exclusively. I love running shell-based Linux without needing an hypervisor. WSL2 has no value for me though, because that's basically running a VM.
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Yep, except I also replaced the case, and the mains lead.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Trigger's broom? Grandad's hammer?
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Yes and yes, I've been a Linux sysadmin for years before doing both the afore-mentioned botched upgrades, I was also a senior member of my local LUG and performed dozens of installations during Linux days.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh man, I remember the LUGs. I wonder if they still have those meetings. I haven't been to one in forever.
Jeremy Falcon
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Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh man, I remember the LUGs. I wonder if they still have those meetings. I haven't been to one in forever.
Jeremy Falcon
Mine split in two for petty politics and I told them (both) to un:elephant: themselves. Never participated since then. Consider that when I started using Linux, Mandrake 8.1 was shiny new. I witnessed the birth of Gentoo and installed it from Stage 0. I also abandoned any extensive use of Linux in 2011 and never looked back.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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Mine split in two for petty politics and I told them (both) to un:elephant: themselves. Never participated since then. Consider that when I started using Linux, Mandrake 8.1 was shiny new. I witnessed the birth of Gentoo and installed it from Stage 0. I also abandoned any extensive use of Linux in 2011 and never looked back.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
den2k88 wrote:
I also abandoned any extensive use of Linux in 2011 and never looked back.
Out of curiosity, what did you move to? Back to Windows? Mac? BSD?
Jeremy Falcon
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I have never had a problem doing a Windows inplace upgrade since W7 as long as I have done a thorough update (drivers, etc), tuneup and virus scan of the current setup. An upgrade is an upgrade NOT a repair.
AAC Tech wrote:
An upgrade is an upgrade NOT a repair.
There's a lot of wisdom in that. I have a system that was set up with Windows 10 (clean), for the very first time, back in June. From the get-go, it has NOT been able to install Microsoft's monthly cumulative updates (CUs) - starting from a clean state! None of the articles on failed updates I've come across have helped. Every month, I keep hoping *that* month's CU will somehow manage to get things sorted out. The October update seemed promising at first, when it tried to install itself, as it also included a servicing stack update. It ran for a lot longer than previous updates, and went farther (%-wise) than any previous update so far. But in the end, it still failed just the same. I'm probably just doing to bite the bullet and repave that machine. This is not unique to that system. I also used to have a Server 2019 VM that couldn't install any update, even from a fresh install. And given it was a VM, on Hyper-V, there was even fewer chances of a "bad" third-party driver or some-such that could cause some obscure failure. So, end-to-end, it was all Microsoft software, including the VM's abstracted hardware...I ended up nuking that VM, reinstalled from the same ISO, and that time around it worked fine...go figure.
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Depends on your use-case. I've had more Debian in-place upgrades fail than I care to remember. About half of them. It depends heavily on what packages you use: - do you have additional apt sources configured? - do you package code to fill in dependencies that aren't readily available? - do you rely on closed source drivers? Any of the above can cause issues. Also, when it breaks, it often breaks spectacularly, with no way to recover. That is why I moved from Debian and Debian-based to Arch. At least with the rolling releases, it breaks in a way that's easy to fix. Since WSL1 however, I'm sticking to Windows Pro exclusively. I love running shell-based Linux without needing an hypervisor. WSL2 has no value for me though, because that's basically running a VM.
Kate-X257 wrote:
WSL2 has no value for me though, because that's basically running a VM.
Yeah, that came as a surprise to me. I was rather impressed with the WLS1 architecture in that it would work at all...but then, to throw all of that away and essentially turn WSL2 into a plain ol' VM...? That was somewhat disappointing, since all-out VMs are so much heavier.
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den2k88 wrote:
I also abandoned any extensive use of Linux in 2011 and never looked back.
Out of curiosity, what did you move to? Back to Windows? Mac? BSD?
Jeremy Falcon
Back to Windows. I had bought a laptop with Win7 and had no internet connection + 13 exams to be passed in a year without any excuse. Well, I discovered that 7 was a beast of stability, no blue screens at all and was resilient to all kinds of software abuses. I quickly got used to it and never looked back. I had the chance to use Linux for embedded development twice in the past 3 years and :elephant: it all with renewed fervor, the various developers managed to insert Windows unpredictability in Linux's complexity - having the wifi/bluetooth drivers correctly activated on 50% of boots is Windows 98 levels of idiocy, and 98 was the one that couldn't resume from standby (until the famous 2nd edition. I was there, Gandalf...).
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
