Is there a white paper explaining why Team Foundation Version Control sucks ?
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Labels. Git doesn't have them at all and they are critical.
They're called tags in git. Seriously man, we're supposed to be better than this.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
And integrated ticketing.
I'm guessing you don't use any non-MS product? I'm sure there are tons of other products that do but Jira, as one example, has integrated with Git for years now. I mean years.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
They're called tags in git.
No, those are a totally different thing. And I see no purpose for them. From what I see (RTFM), a Tag in Git (or Subversion) includes a version of all of the items in a repository. That's not what a Label in TFS (or a Class in CMS) is. With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not. Git should add this feature, it shouldn't difficult, and it will make things so much easier.
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MSBassSinger wrote:
back in the 1990s created a very useful GUI builder for Visual Basic
Having worked on a system that specifically was intended to build UIs long ago and having worked on a CMS (Content Management System) for the past 5 years that is used to build very large company sites I believe I have a bit of knowledge on such attempts... And that is that UI presentations are never sufficient enough to do everything that knowledgeable individuals want to do.
And yet the WinForms GUI builder was so successful that other companies (like PowerBuilder) tried to copy it. It has successfully made Windows apps, including complex ones, to this day. It isn’t that it can’t be done - it has already. It is that it has not been tried with a team capable of the same level of quality and excellence as Alan Cooper and his team had.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
They're called tags in git.
No, those are a totally different thing. And I see no purpose for them. From what I see (RTFM), a Tag in Git (or Subversion) includes a version of all of the items in a repository. That's not what a Label in TFS (or a Class in CMS) is. With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not. Git should add this feature, it shouldn't difficult, and it will make things so much easier.
How so? Isn't the purpose of a label to find a specific commit? To quote Microsoft:
Team Foundation Version Control (TFVC) labels provide a way for you to take a snapshot of your files. Later, you can refer back to that snapshot. By using your label, you can view, build, or even roll back a large set of files to the state they were in when you applied the label.
I realize you can name labels in TFS. You can also name tags in Git. So, how is it not the same thing?
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
They're called tags in git.
No, those are a totally different thing. And I see no purpose for them. From what I see (RTFM), a Tag in Git (or Subversion) includes a version of all of the items in a repository. That's not what a Label in TFS (or a Class in CMS) is. With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not. Git should add this feature, it shouldn't difficult, and it will make things so much easier.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not.
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit, my understanding is that is a changeset. Keep in mind I haven't used TFS in years, so my memory is rusty. What non-Git peeps don't get is that Git doesn't need that feature. Git was designed from the ground up to be great a diffing, merging, etc. I've never seen another SCM do it better. If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
Jeremy Falcon
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How so? Isn't the purpose of a label to find a specific commit? To quote Microsoft:
Team Foundation Version Control (TFVC) labels provide a way for you to take a snapshot of your files. Later, you can refer back to that snapshot. By using your label, you can view, build, or even roll back a large set of files to the state they were in when you applied the label.
I realize you can name labels in TFS. You can also name tags in Git. So, how is it not the same thing?
Jeremy Falcon
As I said, a Label typically contains only a small subset of the items in the repository. Edit: That quote from MS is just a very brief overview of what Labels can be used for. It basically says nothing about what Labels are and the broad range of what they can be used for. If a Git user finds himself using TFS and wants to know how to make the equivalent of a Tag, the answer is a Label, but that doesn't mean that Labels and Tags are the same thing, they are not. They are not equivalent; Labels are greater than Tags. Find the actual documentation for Labels and read it.
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As I said, a Label typically contains only a small subset of the items in the repository. Edit: That quote from MS is just a very brief overview of what Labels can be used for. It basically says nothing about what Labels are and the broad range of what they can be used for. If a Git user finds himself using TFS and wants to know how to make the equivalent of a Tag, the answer is a Label, but that doesn't mean that Labels and Tags are the same thing, they are not. They are not equivalent; Labels are greater than Tags. Find the actual documentation for Labels and read it.
Ok, so if it's backwards... then as I said Git already does that. You still didn't define what constitutes a subset btw. So, let's just assume it's a diff of files that changed between commits. Git does this. Saying it doesn't isn't correct.
Jeremy Falcon
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
With a Label or Class, you include only the items you are interested in -- which could be all of them, but usually not.
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit, my understanding is that is a changeset. Keep in mind I haven't used TFS in years, so my memory is rusty. What non-Git peeps don't get is that Git doesn't need that feature. Git was designed from the ground up to be great a diffing, merging, etc. I've never seen another SCM do it better. If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
Jeremy Falcon
I suspect you never used Labels in TFS either, many people don't.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit,
Certainly, but... A Changeset may contain items which are not to be deployed. A Label can contain versions of items from multiple Changesets.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Git doesn't need that feature
Yes, yes it does. And I suspect they can alter Tags so they do it.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
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Ok, so if it's backwards... then as I said Git already does that. You still didn't define what constitutes a subset btw. So, let's just assume it's a diff of files that changed between commits. Git does this. Saying it doesn't isn't correct.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
it's a diff of files that changed between commits
No. That is not what a Label/Class is. That may be a typical use for a Label, but I can put any version of any item in the repository in a Label any time I want. An item/element doesn't need to have changed to be put in a Label/Class.
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I suspect you never used Labels in TFS either, many people don't.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit,
Certainly, but... A Changeset may contain items which are not to be deployed. A Label can contain versions of items from multiple Changesets.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Git doesn't need that feature
Yes, yes it does. And I suspect they can alter Tags so they do it.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
Given this video (it's 2 minutes only), either this dude is wrong or labels are meant to tag a specific set of files, as well the MS link suggested... [TFS 2013 Tutorial : 24 - How to Apply Labels in Team Foundation Server 2013 using visual Studio - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVLQWrj2AM) You can modify tags in git and labels in TFS so I'm not sure why bringing this up is relevant. If you need to stage files not marked for release that are in your repo for some reason, let's say internal documentation, that can be achieved with git 100%. However, that's a bad design to do that in the SCM itself. Anything exclusionary should be a part of the build process. So, to keep this on point... right now, I'm mentally considering a changeset like a commit in Git terms. Given that, if for some reason you need a label of two different changesets that are completely unrelated (history-wise) to one another in a label, again Git doesn't work that way. Nor should it. That's just a bad design. If you need that, then merge or rebase into whatever branch you're working on in question and create a tag off that. You'll have exactly the same thing but with a consolidated history trail. Git is more analogous to the blockchain in terms of a history trail. That's a good thing. Also, if labels aren't used to tag a release, why are people saying it is?
Jeremy Falcon
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I suspect you never used Labels in TFS either, many people don't.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If you define files you're only interested in as files that changed for a commit,
Certainly, but... A Changeset may contain items which are not to be deployed. A Label can contain versions of items from multiple Changesets.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Git doesn't need that feature
Yes, yes it does. And I suspect they can alter Tags so they do it.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
If I need to figure out which files changed between commits, tags, or branches it's just one simple command away. So, Git can already do this.
That's not what Labels are for, and TFS can do that as well of course.
Btw, I have used labels in the past, but that was like well over a decade ago. Seems like forever and I totally accept my memory is fuzzy in that regards, so I could be going senile. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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I guess Word documents would have that problem too then. But using version control for Word docs has always been problematic. I remember people trying to track changes using Visual Source Safe back in 1996
Yes, but Visual SourceSafe had an option to store only the most recent version of a binary file, which was a great feature.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
it's a diff of files that changed between commits
No. That is not what a Label/Class is. That may be a typical use for a Label, but I can put any version of any item in the repository in a Label any time I want. An item/element doesn't need to have changed to be put in a Label/Class.
So then I didn't get it backwards... which means we clearly have a breakdown in communication here.
Jeremy Falcon
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And yet the WinForms GUI builder was so successful that other companies (like PowerBuilder) tried to copy it. It has successfully made Windows apps, including complex ones, to this day. It isn’t that it can’t be done - it has already. It is that it has not been tried with a team capable of the same level of quality and excellence as Alan Cooper and his team had.
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So then I didn't get it backwards... which means we clearly have a breakdown in communication here.
Jeremy Falcon
Yes, you still don't understand what a Label is in TFS or what a Class is in CMS.
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FYI Power Builder predates even Visual Basic (codename Thunder) which means it almost predates the public internet. I worked on a PowerBuilder 2.0 project talking to a DB running on OS/2! It had form inheritance/templating at that version. Circa 1991.
PowerBuilder did not have a GUI builder anything like VB. Only after VB was out, did PowerBuilder create something similar. In fact, when I worked for the State of Florida, we were deciding on what tools to use for Windows application development for our agency. In the PowerBuilder presentation, the presenter stressed several times how PowerBuilder was like VB for building Windows forms. We looked at both equally, but VB was more advanced in terms of language and the GUI builder. That was a long time ago. The point today is the lack of a GUI builder for VS2022 that has the productivity for XAML and HTML/CSS that it has for WinForms.
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Yes, but Visual SourceSafe had an option to store only the most recent version of a binary file, which was a great feature.
Since VCS (Verson Control Systems) are meant to store diffs between files... what would the point of storing?...
DavidPendleton wrote:
only the most recent version of a binary file
Isn't that the same as storing the latest binary file which is already simply stored in the file system? I'm curious about this. thanks
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Yes, you still don't understand what a Label is in TFS or what a Class is in CMS.
So, you're saying the dude in the video is wrong as well? Because I'm not hearing anything substantial exept you saying "I'm wrong" when to be honest I don't think you know what I'm saying. I've cited three sources saying what a label is and presented several ways you can achieve what you're after in git. I haven't used TFS in a looooooong time, but that doesn't I'm incapable of understanding. Side note, there's yet another way to have public vs private stuff in a repo btw. Git can also use submodules to relate two tepos. That's a better design than trying to integrate that into the same repo. My point is, what you're trying to do in TFS I can promise you can do in Git. But, I'm all I'm hearing is I don't know what labels are after citing sources that say otherwise. And that's fine if I don't know but tell me what I don't know with something concrete and practical. I've already told you Git can do what you're asking. You seem to ignore that. So, if I'm being honest, it seems like you just can't admit you're wrong about Git. Which is silly if I'm being honest. You've already heard me say I could be wrong about labels, but I don't think I am. Which means, this is no longer an intellectual chat.
Jeremy Falcon
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Since VCS (Verson Control Systems) are meant to store diffs between files... what would the point of storing?...
DavidPendleton wrote:
only the most recent version of a binary file
Isn't that the same as storing the latest binary file which is already simply stored in the file system? I'm curious about this. thanks
We used it for daily builds of DLL's and the like. It gave us a way to keep binaries with the code without taking up a lot of space in the VSS database. You could check it out to keep it from being overwritten when you needed that. It also allowed us (the developers) to manage the folder structure, security, etc. instead of the network folks. Other than that, it was pretty-much the same as a network folder.
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So, you're saying the dude in the video is wrong as well? Because I'm not hearing anything substantial exept you saying "I'm wrong" when to be honest I don't think you know what I'm saying. I've cited three sources saying what a label is and presented several ways you can achieve what you're after in git. I haven't used TFS in a looooooong time, but that doesn't I'm incapable of understanding. Side note, there's yet another way to have public vs private stuff in a repo btw. Git can also use submodules to relate two tepos. That's a better design than trying to integrate that into the same repo. My point is, what you're trying to do in TFS I can promise you can do in Git. But, I'm all I'm hearing is I don't know what labels are after citing sources that say otherwise. And that's fine if I don't know but tell me what I don't know with something concrete and practical. I've already told you Git can do what you're asking. You seem to ignore that. So, if I'm being honest, it seems like you just can't admit you're wrong about Git. Which is silly if I'm being honest. You've already heard me say I could be wrong about labels, but I don't think I am. Which means, this is no longer an intellectual chat.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
you're saying the dude in the video is wrong as well?
Most likely, but I haven't watched it and I have no intention of watching it. Very likely he doesn't present the full extent of what Labels are and can be used for. Bloggers and YouTubers rarely cover anything in-depth -- they cover only what they can fit in a presentation, not all that can be known. Read the documentation for the full story. Maybe he is wrong, or incomplete, in which case why watch it? If he isn't wrong, then he and I have both failed to explain the situation to you adequately, so why watch it?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I've already told you Git can do what you're asking.
And I've told you it doesn't. So what's your point?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
you just can't admit you're wrong about Git.
I will admit I'm wrong if I'm proven wrong, but so far I have not been.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I could be wrong about labels
I believe you are. I know Labels in TFS and Classes in CMS, and what I have seen in the documentation for Git and Subversion tells me that Tags are not as flexible. So far I have seen no argument or evidence that Tags are as flexible, all I seem to see is a mistaken view that Labels and Classes not as flexible as they actually are -- that Labels (and therefore Classes) are as brain-dead and useless as Tags. It is a simple fact that Labels and Classes are far superior to Tags. I have looked at the Git (and Subversion) documentation and I see no indication that a Tag can contain versions of only selected items in the repository. This is the strength of Labels and Classes. Show me where a Tag can contain a subset of the items, not a simple snapshot of everything in the repository. And even though you may not have a need for that, I and the teams I've worked on do need that. Without that feature, Git is unusable. As is Subversion, as is VSS. Git needs to add this feature. Let me know when they do.
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jschell wrote:
I don't get excited about any tool. Just as I don't get excited when I decide whether to use a hammer, saw or screw driver.
Hypothetical situation: I suppose if you repeatedly have really bad, frustrating experiences with one tool, and have to put up with it for long periods of time (because there's just nothing better out there), then you find out about some other tool, give it a try, and it works a lot better - and you never go through a bad experience ever again - that'd be reason enough to get excited about something. I'm not saying this is what happened with my coworker, but I had to smile at his enthusiasm using a software program. You don't see that often. Bless him for that, I say.