Can someone be a good data scientist without knowing Calculus?
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I never learned calculus. I had a semester of pre-calculus in college, but it was primarily trigonometry and I only remember that I took it. I also had a semester of statistics, which has been more useful. Discrete math and Finite math were also required for CS majors. But I wouldn't call myself a data scientist either. I like working with data and doing some light data analysis, but others are surely better at the heavy stuff than I. Even if I had learned calculus forty years ago, I wouldn't remember it now unless I had been using it all that time, so it wouldn't help very much, I'd have to re-learn it. "A man's got to know his limitations." -- Harry Callahan P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry. When I graduated high school I had not yet decided to go into software development.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry.
But then one can suppose why high school at all? For example I doubt I really need to know what a verb is. Certainly don't need to figure that out for work. I also don't need to know about the Russian revolution. I don't need to know about Freud. (Not convinced anyone should know about some of that nonsense.) I don't need to simulate erosion in a stream bed. I certainly don't need to know about running around a field collecting bugs with a net. Do I really need to know and be tested on the battles of the civil war? How many hours should I spend being taught the structure of the US government? Did I really need to know how to create a blueprint on a drafting table? Did I really need to dissect a frog? Did I really need to figure out the impact of solids on freezing water? Then there is the problem of if I don't learn any of that what happens when I finally decide to be a programmer, historian, author, politician, doctor, electrician, biologist, etc? Do I then start learning the above? How do I even know what any of those occupations might even be if I didn't learn some of the basics involved in it? So if I don't really need to know any of that I don't need to go to school as long as I did. So what do I spend my time doing instead? Crawling around in a loom at a factory to free up problems doesn't sound like much fun (which is what at least some young children were doing before mandatory schooling.)
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry.
But then one can suppose why high school at all? For example I doubt I really need to know what a verb is. Certainly don't need to figure that out for work. I also don't need to know about the Russian revolution. I don't need to know about Freud. (Not convinced anyone should know about some of that nonsense.) I don't need to simulate erosion in a stream bed. I certainly don't need to know about running around a field collecting bugs with a net. Do I really need to know and be tested on the battles of the civil war? How many hours should I spend being taught the structure of the US government? Did I really need to know how to create a blueprint on a drafting table? Did I really need to dissect a frog? Did I really need to figure out the impact of solids on freezing water? Then there is the problem of if I don't learn any of that what happens when I finally decide to be a programmer, historian, author, politician, doctor, electrician, biologist, etc? Do I then start learning the above? How do I even know what any of those occupations might even be if I didn't learn some of the basics involved in it? So if I don't really need to know any of that I don't need to go to school as long as I did. So what do I spend my time doing instead? Crawling around in a loom at a factory to free up problems doesn't sound like much fun (which is what at least some young children were doing before mandatory schooling.)
jschell wrote:
one can suppose why high school at all
Yeah, I almost mentioned that. Most people don't need more than a sixth or eighth grade education.
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jschell wrote:
one can suppose why high school at all
Yeah, I almost mentioned that. Most people don't need more than a sixth or eighth grade education.
Quote:
sixth or eighth grade education.
Like one Jethro Bodine, he wanted to be a brain surgeon or a 'double naught spy' or a movie producer with the 6th grade education!
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Mircea Neacsu wrote:
computers are not (yet) a science.
Computer science is not programming. Computer science deals with algorithms, complexity, etc., and has a firm basis in mathematics. Programming, on the other hand...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
Computer science deals with algorithms, complexity, etc.
And the techniques used for creating computers. Time-sharing, data storage, etc. Not so much applying computers to different domains.
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Obviously, Statistics is the basis of Data Science, and one must know Calculus to understand Statistics at a deep level. Should We Stop Teaching Calculus In High School?[^]
IF COVID taught us ANYTHING is that scientist rarely agree when they don't want to agree. What I mean is this. From the first data that the CDC posted many data scientists tracked projections and posted the results to have nearly everyone say they were wrong. I watched at virologists who had 1000's of case studies under their belts get slammed as quacks. I too ran the same calculations and came to the same conclusions and lost respect for people who just discounted the math out of hand. Roll forward to just this year when the real final numbers came out and nearly all of the people who were mocked and dismissed were right. The numbers told us then and tell us the same thing today the difference is now people agree. We assumed these statistics, from the majority, were from people, with a high understanding of the math. Turns out the majority were wrong and the few got it right.... So the question to me is Does knowing Calculus make you a good data scientist? NO emphatically not.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry.
But then one can suppose why high school at all? For example I doubt I really need to know what a verb is. Certainly don't need to figure that out for work. I also don't need to know about the Russian revolution. I don't need to know about Freud. (Not convinced anyone should know about some of that nonsense.) I don't need to simulate erosion in a stream bed. I certainly don't need to know about running around a field collecting bugs with a net. Do I really need to know and be tested on the battles of the civil war? How many hours should I spend being taught the structure of the US government? Did I really need to know how to create a blueprint on a drafting table? Did I really need to dissect a frog? Did I really need to figure out the impact of solids on freezing water? Then there is the problem of if I don't learn any of that what happens when I finally decide to be a programmer, historian, author, politician, doctor, electrician, biologist, etc? Do I then start learning the above? How do I even know what any of those occupations might even be if I didn't learn some of the basics involved in it? So if I don't really need to know any of that I don't need to go to school as long as I did. So what do I spend my time doing instead? Crawling around in a loom at a factory to free up problems doesn't sound like much fun (which is what at least some young children were doing before mandatory schooling.)
But the question was "whether one needed calculus to be a data scientist?". I agree with @PIEBALDconsult "P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry.", with the exception of geometry since it is widely used in careers, trades, and personal calculations. For your list, there are items to agree and disagree with. I'll just pick two, for example. - "Don't need to know what a verb is" - Perhaps that is why I often have to waste my time proofreading software instructions and websites that engineers (both software and real engineers), have created to be unintelligible. - "How many hours should I spend being taught the structure of the US government?". When we look at the state of ignorance of Americans today when it comes to understanding government, I'd say a lot more hours than are currently being taught. At least as many as would be needed to pass the citizenship test given to immigrants. Several of your items deal with scientific methods, or at least should be taught from that point of view. Those were a prerequisite for statistics in college back in the day. Of course, you are correct in your conclusion that, without some introduction into many different subjects in high school, how would you know what education to pursue? I'll leave you with a story. A few years ago, I was riding to a meeting with an acquaintance who had a MS in math and a EdD. I mentioned that requiring algebra 2 was a waste of time for the majority of students. He replied that I, as a computer guy, should understand that algebra 2 teaches logic and reasoning. We happened to be passing by the courthouse, so I told him we should go in the building and give the attorneys and algebra test and see how they do on "logic and reasoning". He was like; "point taken, there are many ways to teach that".
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Obviously, Statistics is the basis of Data Science, and one must know Calculus to understand Statistics at a deep level. Should We Stop Teaching Calculus In High School?[^]
I'd say calculus would be needed, but it somewhat depends on the definition of a data scientist. It's certainly possible to be proficient in statistics without needing to get to a deep level of understanding. Are you the engineer designing the plane or the pilot flying it?
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Obviously, Statistics is the basis of Data Science, and one must know Calculus to understand Statistics at a deep level. Should We Stop Teaching Calculus In High School?[^]
On a side note, I've often wondered why getting a CS degree requires calculus when few programmers ever use it. CS is based on logic more than math. I minored in philosophy as an undergrad, and the symbolic logic classes I took taught me a lot more about logic than I ever learned in math or CS classes. That served me well, I use logic in every programming project, but I've never had to integrate anything (which is good, because I've forgotten how). I think there's long been a misunderstanding about what CS is based on. It's logic not math, Turing wasn't doing math when he invented the programmable computer, he was reading analytic philosophy (Bertrand Russell, in particular) and imagining an automated logical machine based on that. Digital computers are logical machines, they can do math because logic is the foundation of math.
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But the question was "whether one needed calculus to be a data scientist?". I agree with @PIEBALDconsult "P.S. Most high school graduates do not need calculus. Or trigonometry. Or Algebra 2. Or geometry.", with the exception of geometry since it is widely used in careers, trades, and personal calculations. For your list, there are items to agree and disagree with. I'll just pick two, for example. - "Don't need to know what a verb is" - Perhaps that is why I often have to waste my time proofreading software instructions and websites that engineers (both software and real engineers), have created to be unintelligible. - "How many hours should I spend being taught the structure of the US government?". When we look at the state of ignorance of Americans today when it comes to understanding government, I'd say a lot more hours than are currently being taught. At least as many as would be needed to pass the citizenship test given to immigrants. Several of your items deal with scientific methods, or at least should be taught from that point of view. Those were a prerequisite for statistics in college back in the day. Of course, you are correct in your conclusion that, without some introduction into many different subjects in high school, how would you know what education to pursue? I'll leave you with a story. A few years ago, I was riding to a meeting with an acquaintance who had a MS in math and a EdD. I mentioned that requiring algebra 2 was a waste of time for the majority of students. He replied that I, as a computer guy, should understand that algebra 2 teaches logic and reasoning. We happened to be passing by the courthouse, so I told him we should go in the building and give the attorneys and algebra test and see how they do on "logic and reasoning". He was like; "point taken, there are many ways to teach that".
MikeCO10 wrote:
Perhaps that is why I often have to waste my time proofreading software instruction
Being able to write is not the same as being able to parse a sentence into its parts. And I suspect that most of the people you have a problem with in the above did in fact have years of 'english' classes and quite a bit of discussion about what a verb is.
MikeCO10 wrote:
When we look at the state of ignorance of Americans today when it comes to understanding government
However not necessary to actually be a successful programmer.
MikeCO10 wrote:
Several of your items deal with scientific methods, or at least should be taught from that point of view.
However in the US only about 16% of degrees are STEM.
MikeCO10 wrote:
He was like; "point taken, there are many ways to teach that".
Like philosophy classes of which I took several which specifically taught logic and reasoning. 1. I remember one over-heard discussion where a liberal student who thought of themselves and being smart was having a significant difficulty understanding symbolic logic. (I suspect they could have parsed a sentence though.) 2. In another class a engineering student was having difficulty understand a philosophical concept. Took me years and more experience to realize some 'scientific' people just cannot understand the actual basics and conceptual basis for logic (and science for that matter.)
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Obviously, Statistics is the basis of Data Science, and one must know Calculus to understand Statistics at a deep level. Should We Stop Teaching Calculus In High School?[^]
Calculus is actually pretty easy. One thing that really surprises me is how many music majors claim they don't like math. In reality, Calculus I and Music Theory Two are probably about the same level of difficulty. Things really don't start getting ugly in the math world until you reach junior level ABET engineering courses and apply the Calculus you learn. Calculus I-III and even DiffEq generally aren't that hard depending on *where* you take them, but at some point, you will be expected to apply it and things get more difficult there. To answer your question, I'm guessing one can skate by in the world of Data Science without knowing Calculus and used pre-boxed algorithms and/or numerical analysis techniques to make observations. After all, a person can write a 3D game now without necessarily knowing classic Physics or Linear Algebra since that person can likely rely on a gaming engine to do that "hard stuff". I think much of Data Analysis these days might be in using low-level Tensor Flow or higher-level Auto ML or super easy regression analysis packages. You don't necessarily need to have a deep understanding of how these things work to use wrapper libraries. With that said, don't avoid Calculus. It's much easier than you think and there are probably software tutors out there...